Foster, Robertson etc
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@ploughboy said in [Foster](/post/755111
to be fair there have been a hand full of posters here i have thought might have mental health issues in the last 7 months
Agree on that. And I agree with what Julian Savea said there.
I think Ian Foster is still trying to the best of his abilities to get the best results for his entire squad amidst the huge criticism while he is still employed to be in charge. And maybe he is all ready to step aside after weathering the flak while a plan B is put in place?
This contrasts with the angst that a handful of supposed fans are spreading with harsh attacks through online media. The players and coaches have families too who no doubt get told about it all even if they can shut it out for themselves.
I just hope that the players and coaches beyond the next test are not already badly impacted by the most extreme criticism.
It seems I am the outlier on TSF with this attitude. But I do believe that sports people need a positive support base around them to perform at their best for long periods in a high pressure high performance environment. I also think they know where they have been falling short and are motivated to do something about it through the pride and passion that got them that far.
I left my role in another sport because of ongoing bullying and undermining of HP coaches. I saw the sad impact on the health and lives of people involved and could not continue with it unchecked.
I read the fern to be better informed and to get a range of perspectives. What I do wonder about is what the less regular posters think. Is everybody so angry they need to vent harshly and regularly on individuals? There is not much material for those under pressure to be inspired by and that is a shame... -
@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
But fair enough too, he is well in his rights to tell NZR to foxtrot oscar until after this year and/or RWC cycle
The optics of Robertson not getting involved when the ABs are suffering is horrific. If true, this will not play well with people, myself included. Opportunities come up when they come up, it's not always the right time.
Hell, it's a 12 month honeymoon I reckon, and a chance to start building for post-23
Only if NZR give him a gaurantee of RWC 2027, otherwise he is shooting himself in the foot. Knowing NZR they are not offering that. Cos they are fluffybunnies. But NZR are probably offering a contract til the RWC, with all sorts of clauses. After they fucked up Foster contract by not actually putting any performance clauses in it, they probably are now - thus Razor gets the shitty end of the stick and rightly says fuck you
There's no way NZR should be offering Robertson a contract through to 2027, that would be madness given Robertson's lack of experience coaching at test level. I'm happy for him to take over now (if Schmidt doesn't want it), and be given until 2025 to prove himself. That's more than enough time to prove his worth.
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@Machpants said in Foster:
But fair enough too, he is well in his rights to tell NZR to foxtrot oscar until after this year and/or RWC cycle
The optics of Robertson not getting involved when the ABs are suffering is horrific. If true, this will not play well with people, myself included. Opportunities come up when they come up, it's not always the right time.
Hell, it's a 12 month honeymoon I reckon, and a chance to start building for post-23
Let’s wait. There has been zero comment from the man himself and lots of speculation
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@Machpants said in Foster:
But fair enough too, he is well in his rights to tell NZR to foxtrot oscar until after this year and/or RWC cycle
The optics of Robertson not getting involved when the ABs are suffering is horrific. If true, this will not play well with people, myself included. Opportunities come up when they come up, it's not always the right time.
Hell, it's a 12 month honeymoon I reckon, and a chance to start building for post-23
Yep, if he really wants the job so much he will take it when it’s available not when it suits him best. He will basically get a 12 month free pass ( @Victor-Meldrew ) and 5 year appointment overall at this stage, so what’s the big deal?
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@No-Quarter said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
But fair enough too, he is well in his rights to tell NZR to foxtrot oscar until after this year and/or RWC cycle
The optics of Robertson not getting involved when the ABs are suffering is horrific. If true, this will not play well with people, myself included. Opportunities come up when they come up, it's not always the right time.
Hell, it's a 12 month honeymoon I reckon, and a chance to start building for post-23
Only if NZR give him a gaurantee of RWC 2027, otherwise he is shooting himself in the foot. Knowing NZR they are not offering that. Cos they are fluffybunnies. But NZR are probably offering a contract til the RWC, with all sorts of clauses. After they fucked up Foster contract by not actually putting any performance clauses in it, they probably are now - thus Razor gets the shitty end of the stick and rightly says fuck you
There's no way NZR should be offering Robertson a contract through to 2027, that would be madness given Robertson's lack of experience coaching at test level. I'm happy for him to take over now (if Schmidt doesn't want it), and be given until 2025 to prove himself. That's more than enough time to prove his worth.
I said earlier that Razor basically has a 5 year appointment, but I agree that 2 years post 2023 is what he should be given (this year and next should be a free pass given the circumstances). But as old mate @Victor-Meldrew says post 2023 we need to see some rapid improvement.
However, this may be the sticking point for Razor - we’ve seen some reports he wants a full 4 years to work his magic but understandably NZR and the general public should have reservations about this.
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Very early on I mentioned his mental health and that of his family too, Henry said the criticism of him was harder on his wife.
People can be cruel, sure it is only sport, but it's the fact so many saw this coming, when he was first appointed, then extended off the back of fuck all, and then when you add in all the other clusterfucks involving NZR over the past couple of years it points to a rotten core in an organisation that is one of the most successful sports teams in history, how quickly a legacy is falling.
I think this is what is driving the frustration, anger and from some, nasty comments.
I can certainly see why Razor wouldn't want the job right now, but, by the same token, you'd think it would be an ideal time for him to show how good he is.
NZR should give him what he wants...now isn't the time for them to learn lessons from their failings of the last few years...😅
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
Very early on I mentioned his mental health and that of his family too, Henry said the criticism of him was harder on his wife.
People can be cruel, sure it is only sport, but it's the fact so many saw this coming, when he was first appointed, then extended off the back of fuck all, and then when you add in all the other clusterfucks involving NZR over the past couple of years it points to a rotten core in an organisation that is one of the most successful sports teams in history, how quickly a legacy is falling.
I think this is what is driving the frustration, anger and from some, nasty comments.
I can certainly see why Razor wouldn't want the job right now, but, by the same token, you'd think it would be an ideal time for him to show how good he is.
NZR should give him what he wants...now isn't the time for them to learn lessons from their failings of the last few years...😅A tension that rugby still has a way to go with is the one between it being just a game (true), and a game now involving large sums of money (also true).
I'm not particularly a fan of the mega million dollar situations in other codes where the coaches are sacked after a handful of games. But, sometimes I wonder if NZR and co try to have it both ways a little bit too much. E.g. Silver Lake.
Big money drives big expectations...
In terms of Foster, I don't resile from longstanding questions about his selections and the inconsistency of his teams performances. What I think is new (?), is that I can't recall him previously saying things as jarring or out of synch like the 'most improved performance this year'. Pressure can build up to a dangerous thing. His employer does need to finally step up, but in several ways.
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@No-Quarter said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
But fair enough too, he is well in his rights to tell NZR to foxtrot oscar until after this year and/or RWC cycle
The optics of Robertson not getting involved when the ABs are suffering is horrific. If true, this will not play well with people, myself included. Opportunities come up when they come up, it's not always the right time.
Hell, it's a 12 month honeymoon I reckon, and a chance to start building for post-23
Only if NZR give him a gaurantee of RWC 2027, otherwise he is shooting himself in the foot. Knowing NZR they are not offering that. Cos they are fluffybunnies. But NZR are probably offering a contract til the RWC, with all sorts of clauses. After they fucked up Foster contract by not actually putting any performance clauses in it, they probably are now - thus Razor gets the shitty end of the stick and rightly says fuck you
There's no way NZR should be offering Robertson a contract through to 2027, that would be madness given Robertson's lack of experience coaching at test level. I'm happy for him to take over now (if Schmidt doesn't want it), and be given until 2025 to prove himself. That's more than enough time to prove his worth.
I said earlier that Razor basically has a 5 year appointment, but I agree that 2 years post 2023 is what he should be given (this year and next should be a free pass given the circumstances). But as old mate @Victor-Meldrew says post 2023 we need to see some rapid improvement.
In the ideal world, if Foster had been replaced after Ireland, you could have given any new coach until the end of 2022 to get things moving in the right direction and prepared plan B if things didn't improve.
That ship has sailed and if Foster is gone next week or so, it makes sense to give the new guy until RWC2023 but there's a need to keep things on a tight leash. I think the problems run way deeper than simply the coaching staff and NZR need to ensure any new guy demonstrates he's capable of fixing the problems (and working with NZR to do that) first and foremost
However, this may be the sticking point for Razor - we’ve seen some reports he wants a full 4 years to work his magic but understandably NZR and the general public should have reservations about this.
As @sparky says, either Robertson wants to coach the All Blacks or not, and if so, he can't dictate the terms. You don't give a bloke with minimum international experience a four-year free pass in the belief he's a world-beater . It's way too risky.
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@Victor-Meldrew that's the kicker, Robertson SHOULDNT be able to dictate terms, but the way the last appointment process went and then the unwarranted extension and now this clusterfuck, he holds a pretty strong hand.
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@ploughboy said in [Foster](/post/755111
to be fair there have been a hand full of posters here i have thought might have mental health issues in the last 7 months
Agree on that. And I agree with what Julian Savea said there.
I think Ian Foster is still trying to the best of his abilities to get the best results for his entire squad amidst the huge criticism while he is still employed to be in charge. And maybe he is all ready to step aside after weathering the flak while a plan B is put in place?
This contrasts with the angst that a handful of supposed fans are spreading with harsh attacks through online media. The players and coaches have families too who no doubt get told about it all even if they can shut it out for themselves.
I just hope that the players and coaches beyond the next test are not already badly impacted by the most extreme criticism.
It seems I am the outlier on TSF with this attitude. But I do believe that sports people need a positive support base around them to perform at their best for long periods in a high pressure high performance environment. I also think they know where they have been falling short and are motivated to do something about it through the pride and passion that got them that far.
I left my role in another sport because of ongoing bullying and undermining of HP coaches. I saw the sad impact on the health and lives of people involved and could not continue with it unchecked.
I read the fern to be better informed and to get a range of perspectives. What I do wonder about is what the less regular posters think. Is everybody so angry they need to vent harshly and regularly on individuals? There is not much material for those under pressure to be inspired by and that is a shame...Well put. I don't care so much about the fat comments. When I call that out it is just to call out the unimaginative, repetitive whining.
What does annoy me more is the posters that continue to allude to his integrity.
The man may not be the right coach or have the right skills/abilities for this situation but suggesting that he is happy to drag the team down for his own monetary purposes or is purposely lying or will put himself ahead of the team is pure bullshit.
Yes, it does come from frustration but FFS engage the brain a bit before the keyboard. -
I am quite happy for whoever takes over the ABs to not be restrained on a tight leash by the NZRU as it stands right now. These are the same people who were running the ship when we got into this mess. If you were Robertson, or anyone else for that matter, would you really want your ability to perform controlled by these people? Appoint someone and trust them to do the job. Having too many controls in place can be counter productive.
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I get why Robertson would like an ideal situation to work in (wouldn't we all) and it is his right to see if he can get it. However, at some point he also needs to decide if this is about the ABs or about his career and goals.
I'm not criticising him either way, it is his call. But I'm sure those that think he will be saviour will claim that he was driven away instead of him doing what he thinks is best for himself.
Deans did it and turned out to not be the messiah, Rennie remains to be seen and Joseph has the luxury of low expectations.
Certainly interesting times and a lot of people will be pissed off at the outcome from Foster going. -
Just give Robertson a two year deal past the world cup and review at the mid point. This year should be invaluable to him, an expectations free run at a World Cup to get experienced with that tournament.
If he doesn't want it, maybe he's not the right guy anyway? Move on to the next guy.
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@Kirwan yeah I think if he really wants to coach the ABs, why not go now? His mate Ryan is already there, while he may not get everything he wants, I am sure he can still cut a pretty sweet deal for himself, probably zero KPI's pre-RWC.
I see DC is helping the Black Ferns, why does Fozzie not engage his services? Jane for high ball work?
From the outside it does seem to be a very closed shop in terms of not looking to utilise the resources available.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Kirwan yeah I think if he really wants to coach the ABs, why not go now? His mate Ryan is already there, while he may not get everything he wants, I am sure he can still cut a pretty sweet deal for himself, probably zero KPI's pre-RWC.
I see DC is helping the Black Ferns, why does Fozzie not engage his services? Jane for high ball work?
From the outside it does seem to be a very closed shop in terms of not looking to utilise the resources available.
Fresh pair of eyes in several areas would certainly help Foster. Only so much you can do in a week, I'm expecting a worse loss this time.
