Foster, Robertson etc
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@pakman Thanks. Interesting read.
If Foster has identified these shortcomings in the best players at his disposal, it feeds into something @Victor-Meldrew has said in previous posts about there being a long-term planning issue in identifying and developing players in the NZ game that the ABs need to play the way they want to.
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@stodders said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman Thanks. Interesting read.
If Foster has identified these shortcomings in the best players at his disposal, it feeds into something @Victor-Meldrew has said in previous posts about there being a long-term planning issue in identifying and developing players in the NZ game that the ABs need to play the way they want to.
By that last statement, I am not absolving Foster of his poor coaching performance to date. The rest of the world have caught up in terms of skills and fitness. As before, NZ has to innovate to stay ahead.
If the players aren't skilled enough to fit the game plan Foster wants the team to play, it is his job to find a different game plan that best suits the skills of the players he has at his disposal. On this measure, he is failing.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Here's a genuine question: What differences to the ABs' play have been introduced in the two and a half years since Foster became head coach? He spoke after being appointed about all the fresh ideas he would bring. I'd love to hear from anyone who can identify the fresh things he's introduced to the ABs. I'm excluding the negatives: the decline in defence and attack, the gradual loss of skills, the kicking that is less and less contestable, the decline in the lineout and so on. Can anyone identify positive changes in the last couple of seasons?
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@Bones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Here's a genuine question: What differences to the ABs' play have been introduced in the two and a half years since Foster became head coach? He spoke after being appointed about all the fresh ideas he would bring. I'd love to hear from anyone who can identify the fresh things he's introduced to the ABs. I'm excluding the negatives: the decline in defence and attack, the gradual loss of skills, the kicking that is less and less contestable, the decline in the lineout and so on. Can anyone identify positive changes in the last couple of seasons?
Samson effect. Bring back the long hair!
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Foster's voice reminds me of slow-moving oozing chocolate sauce, enveloping all in its wake with a sweet cloud of soothing mediocrity. Calmly explaining in slippery corporate speak why what we see is actually not what we see and why the team always has learnings and work-ons after the fact rather than preventing the problems from occurring in the first place. Things are explained in terms of feelings rather than plain facts. The most idiotic decisions are calmly explained with outdated brainless platitudes
Case in point - asked why he selected Dane Coles on the bench and demoted Samisoni. Cue soothing voice -
- "We wanted to give all the hookers a run."
The players (were) doing okay in spite of him, but eventually the lack of coaching nous (combined with some pretty average assistants) has us where we are now.
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@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
Author was Nick Bishop.
In fact Meads debuted at flanker and also played
Eight early on. [Could have] Did play[ed] back row with ease!
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@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
Author was Nick Bishop.
Must watch out for him
In fact Meads debuted at flanker and also played Eight early on. [Could have] Did play[ed] back row with ease!
Yeah, really skilled forwards were quite common then - props scoring drop goals, locks appearing in midfield and sidestepping opposition backs and others doing off-loads that SBW would die for. Far less bulky than now, of course, and the game was played at a much slower pace but the skills have always been there.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
Author was Nick Bishop.
Must watch out for him
In fact Meads debuted at flanker and also played Eight early on. [Could have] Did play[ed] back row with ease!
Yeah, really skilled forwards were quite common then - props scoring drop goals, locks appearing in midfield and sidestepping opposition backs and others doing off-loads that SBW would die for. Far less bulky than now, of course, and the game was played at a much slower pace but the skills have always been there.
He posts some good analysis on Roar too, but it is written predominantly for the Australian audience.
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@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
Burned by Beirne: Is the All Blacks engine room coming off the rails?
The selection of tough, mobile second rows has always been a point of difference in New Zealand’s favour - until now.
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@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
Burned by Beirne: Is the All Blacks engine room coming off the rails?
The selection of tough, mobile second rows has always been a point of difference in New Zealand’s favour - until now.
No doubt at all the Beirne is a class player. I can't see the connection between his class and the ABs though.
Shorter story is that we used to be ahead of the pack because we played with a speed of thought that our players grew up with as a natural way of playing whereas NH players didn't quite come to the same levels of instinctiveness in handling and running. We spread it from the backs to the forwards while their backs were still getting there but now, not only have they caught up but their larger playing numbers, money, coaching setups etc have helped them find players to get past us.This is generational stuff not just 'smarter play'. They used to scoff at our basketball rugby while secretly admiring it at copying it.
The playing field isn't just level now it has tipped their way and the sooner we acknowledge that the better.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
Author was Nick Bishop.
Must watch out for him
In fact Meads debuted at flanker and also played Eight early on. [Could have] Did play[ed] back row with ease!
Yeah, really skilled forwards were quite common then - props scoring drop goals, locks appearing in midfield and sidestepping opposition backs and others doing off-loads that SBW would die for. Far less bulky than now, of course, and the game was played at a much slower pace but the skills have always been there.
Check out Pinetree at 56 and at 1.38:
Can remember an early SBW run/stroll for the ABs, ball in one hand, and thinking how it reminded me of the Tree.
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@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
Burned by Beirne: Is the All Blacks engine room coming off the rails?
The selection of tough, mobile second rows has always been a point of difference in New Zealand’s favour - until now.
No doubt at all the Beirne is a class player. I can't see the connection between his class and the ABs though.
Shorter story is that we used to be ahead of the pack because we played with a speed of thought that our players grew up with as a natural way of playing whereas NH players didn't quite come to the same levels of instinctiveness in handling and running. We spread it from the backs to the forwards while their backs were still getting there but now, not only have they caught up but their larger playing numbers, money, coaching setups etc have helped them find players to get past us.This is generational stuff not just 'smarter play'. They used to scoff at our basketball rugby while secretly admiring it at copying it.
The playing field isn't just level now it has tipped their way and the sooner we acknowledge that the better.
Ireland have fewer players than NZ, less revenues (€84m Vs €116m), had a €10m deficit last financial year Vs NZ who just posted a profit after 4 years of deficits.
If money was everything, England would be far and away no.1.
Ireland have had a plan, put structures in place to implement it and have extracted the maximum out of their player base (indigenous and naturalised) through good coaching and their provinces working together for he good of Irish rugby but at the same time keeping their independent playing styles.
A lot like the NZ model, no? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery 😊
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@stodders said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
Burned by Beirne: Is the All Blacks engine room coming off the rails?
The selection of tough, mobile second rows has always been a point of difference in New Zealand’s favour - until now.
No doubt at all the Beirne is a class player. I can't see the connection between his class and the ABs though.
Shorter story is that we used to be ahead of the pack because we played with a speed of thought that our players grew up with as a natural way of playing whereas NH players didn't quite come to the same levels of instinctiveness in handling and running. We spread it from the backs to the forwards while their backs were still getting there but now, not only have they caught up but their larger playing numbers, money, coaching setups etc have helped them find players to get past us.This is generational stuff not just 'smarter play'. They used to scoff at our basketball rugby while secretly admiring it at copying it.
The playing field isn't just level now it has tipped their way and the sooner we acknowledge that the better.
Ireland have fewer players than NZ, less revenues (€84m Vs €116m), had a €10m deficit last financial year Vs NZ who just posted a profit after 4 years of deficits.
If money was everything, England would be far and away no.1.
Ireland have had a plan, put structures in place to implement it and have extracted the maximum out of their player base (indigenous and naturalised) through good coaching and their provinces working together for he good of Irish rugby but at the same time keeping their independent playing styles.
A lot like the NZ model, no? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery 😊
The comments weren’t all directed at Ireland. However money still plays a part whether it is employing non national coaches and players or, over a generation, luring non Irish players into internal comps to spread the “gospel” and lift the standard.
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@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@chchfanatic said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants would you like to put a wager on it. You name the price.
if @chchfanatic is that confident he is probably right.He has a source, Some things he has told me have been dead right.
The first leg of Leon coming in sounds highly likely.
It's already rumoured and Mooar's departure leaves space.
The rest would mean Fozzie is already a dead man walking. Might be contingent on improvement or lack of it.
Quite a logical plan, though - even if Joe doesn't ever take the reins.
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Hansen not happy, you can put some of this on him, we stagnated from late in his time at the helm to now, plus he endorsed Fozzie so this tarnishes his rep too.
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@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
The rest would mean Fozzie is already a dead man walking. Might be contingent on improvement or lack of it.
Quite a logical plan, though - even if Joe doesn't ever take the reins.it's not logical it's awful
If some random dude from ChCh knows this plan. Then every single person in the AB camp does too. How the fuck does that provide a high performance environment in the hardest place in the rugby world to tour?
Even if it is "contingent" it will still have an effect. And as a follower of the EPL, I've seen a lot of "x has 3 games to save his job" and guess how many have actually saved them?
If this is the plan, Foster should have been sacked last week. So this is either bad oil, or the NZRU are in a worse state than we all think.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Hansen not happy, you can put some of this on him, we stagnated from late in his time at the helm to now, plus he endorsed Fozzie so this tarnishes his rep too.
yeah fuck off Steve. Your overall point isn't wrong, but your angle on it absolutely is.
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@Chris-B said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@chchfanatic said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants would you like to put a wager on it. You name the price.
if @chchfanatic is that confident he is probably right.He has a source, Some things he has told me have been dead right.
The first leg of Leon coming in sounds highly likely.
It's already rumoured and Mooar's departure leaves space.
The rest would mean Fozzie is already a dead man walking. Might be contingent on improvement or lack of it.
Quite a logical plan, though - even if Joe doesn't ever take the reins.
It would be a great plan,I still don't trust NZR to think that way .
