Foster, Robertson etc
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Burned by Beirne: Is the All Blacks engine room coming off the rails?
The selection of tough, mobile second rows has always been a point of difference in New Zealand’s favour - until now.
Ahead of a titanic July series against Ireland, All Blacks head honcho Ian Foster had a premonition of the future.
Maybe, he gave away more than he intended on The All Blacks Podcast back in May; for the first time ever in their illustrious rugby history, Foster believed New Zealand players needed to work harder on their skills and speed in order to stay ahead of the chasing pack:
“What are our biggest weaknesses? I think there are certainly some ‘work-on’ areas.
“There are two aspects that we have historically been number one in the world on.
“One is speed – and I’m talking about speed around the park and speed to do things – and the other one has been our skill level.
“Generally, All Black players have been really, really skilful, and we just think those are the two areas that other teams and other competitions are starting to catch up, they are putting a lot of effort in those areas.”
“I look at the experience last year, we had a great Rugby Championship, went really well, then went up to the UK. We weren’t able to be fast in those last two tests. We played two teams [Ireland and France] that were fast. Two teams that were really quite skilful with their forwards and their backs.”
“It’s just a little bit of an uppercut for us, really.”
All Blacks coach Ian Foster suggested ahead of the Irish series that his men might not have a clear advantage over Ireland when it came to skill and speed – and he was proven correct. (Photo By Brendan Moran/Getty Images)You cannot imagine any previous coach of New Zealand making those comments. It has been taken for granted that, whatever their weaknesses, the All Blacks would be too fast and too skilful, for too long, for them to matter in the final analysis.
That has been particularly true in the skill-sets of their forwards, which have always been better-rounded in the aspects of play outside set-piece than their counterparts from Europe or South Africa. At least, until now. The series against Ireland will change that perception, possibly for good.
Take the second row as an example. New Zealand selections in both eras, the amateur and the professional, have been a breed apart. They have usually tended to be less bulky, more mobile and enjoy a clear advantage in running power, handling and passing skills compared to their rivals. Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
The current All Blacks pairing of Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick is one of the two best partnerships of the professional era, sitting alongside the great Springbok alliance of Bakkies Botha and Victor Matfield at the top of the second-row pantheon. Definite signs of wear and tear appeared in the Ireland series: with their respective age profiles – Whitelock will be 35 years old by the time the World Cup begins, and Retallick will be 32 – the couple may struggle to make the required impact.
Overall, the mix of Whitelock, Retallick and Scott Barrett (who replaced the Crusades lineout chief in Dunedin) came off second best to the Irish unit of James Ryan and Tadhg Beirne. Not by a lot, but by enough of a margin to raise concerns. On attack, the raw stats looked like this:
The biggest single difference in the offensive comparison is the quality of Tadhg Beirne’s ball-carrying, which showed better evasive skills and more line-breaking potential than any of the other second rows on either side. The Ireland locks were also more effective than Whitelock and Retallick at pinching ball on the opposition lineout throw.
This is how the statistical picture looked on the other side of the ball:
The playing field is more level on defence, although once again Beirne probably presents the greatest threat in and around the tackle area.
Tadhg Beirne’s quality first came to my attention while I was preparing for Leinster’s 2017-2018 European Champions Cup semi-final against the Scarlets, the Welsh region that Beirne represented at the time. Once Beirne’s involvements were fed into to my analytical model, it emerged that he was Scarlets’ best on-baller, their best maul defender and their best counter-jumper at the lineout. In fact, he represented rather more than 50 per cent of Scarlets’ entire takeaway ability, upon which their dangerous counter-attacking game depended.
There is an excellent potted history of his attributes in this short video. Roll the clock on another four years, and Tadhg Beirne is now doing what he did for Scarlets in the emerald green of Ireland. It is rare indeed to see the hallmarks of top-quality provincial play reproduced so completely at international level, and even more so against the mighty All Blacks.
A considerable portion of Beirne’s time has been spent playing on the blindside flank, and his second wave ball-carrying in the pivotal test in Dunedin was majestic, right from the opening whistle:
Ireland are in their tight-knit diamond phase shape, with forwards to both sides of number 10 Johnny Sexton, sitting just behind the tip. Josh van der Flier makes the initial bust, then Beirne is on hand to make the big break downfield off lightning-quick ball on the following phase.
It is the short, nuanced pass that does the damage, putting Tadhg through the hole in between Sam Cane and Ofa Tuungafasi – and the Munster second row’s pace does the rest. Later in the sequence, he is on hand to bring the ball back towards the New Zealand posts, on the phase prior to the score by Andrew Porter.
Beirne’s effectiveness on the second wave carry was a consistent theme. After a long break down the right by Bundee Aki and Peter O’Mahony, he was ready to take a pass off Sexton’s shoulder. The game awareness is still working: he drops back a couple of steps to make Van der Flier a real passing option and mask the short-ball threat:
Later in the second half, he created space for a bust by his second-row comrade James Ryan with a neat tip-on pass:
Beirne was also central to Ireland’s defensive plan to defuse Aaron Smith’s long passing from the base of the ruck, which had proved to be so productive for the All Blacks at Eden Park. In the week between the final two tests, Ireland became considerably bolder in their attack from the fourth defender spot:
In the first example from Dunedin, Beirne is making the chop tackle on Brodie Retallick and Caelan Doris is in over the ball immediately to win the turnover. At the Cake Tin, the Munsterman is even more direct, jumping straight off the line to make an interception before the pass ever reaches its target.
It was one of four turnovers Tadhg Beirne generated in a frenetic last half hour of the game. The other three occurred on the ground at the breakdown:
When teams begin to identify threats to the ball at the tackle area they often over-compensate, with Sam Whitelock penalised for a neck roll on Beirne in the second instance.
The final example illustrates the effectiveness of the high-quality hybrid number 4/6 which New Zealand used to produce on such a regular basis. Tadhg Beirne makes a 15-metre sprint to close the gap to the back outside him (Conor Murray) in the 73rd minute of the match, and finishes with a game-changing turnover when he gets there, despite the attentions of David Havili and replacement lock Tupou Vai’i:
His contribution in the tight was also critical to Ireland’s two close-range tries from the driving lineout:
In both examples, Tadhg Beirne’s sole purpose on the right side of the receiver (Ryan) is to peel away the primary maul defenders opposite him – Retallick and Whitelock in the first instance, Whitelock and Akira Ioane in the second. As soon as they are removed, the drive jolts forward with new momentum and a try follows in short order.
The selection of tough, mobile second rows with great aerial and handling skills has always been a point of difference in New Zealand’s favour, in both the amateur and professional eras. Think Colin Meads, think Robin Brooke and Ian Jones. Occasionally they have suffered in the tight, much more often they have profited from their increased cohesion in the open.
In the recent series against Ireland, the second row cards fell out clearly in Ireland’s favour – not by a huge margin, but clear nonetheless. As Ian Foster feared, teams in the north have caught up with this area of Kiwi forward advantage. They have the big men who can run, handle and defend as well as they can attend to the core tasks of tight forward play – men such as Tadhg Beirne and France’s Cameron Woki.
Remember those names, they will be in lights at the World Cup in France 2023.
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@Billy-Tell I think the current management team are all decent, passionate people that care about rugby like we all do. But over a long period of time the management hasn't work. Literally years.
I have not mentioned sacking more people. I would like the NZR to come forward and give the most successful SR coach by a wide margin a leading role in the current setup.
Of course I don't want the ABs to lose, but it's time for change and the next WC is not far away.
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@pakman so when did he identify these issues or work ons?
Just this year? Last year? 2020? Earlier?
So you identify the issue, what has been done about them?
Which presents another possible issues...
If only identified this year, really, WTF!
Last year, geez, but nothing changed this year?
2020, ah ok, cool, but, er whats changed?
Earlier, seriously, WTF have you been doing since circa 2017/2018?If these problems exist in the #1 team we have, they will most certainly exist in the levels below, but maybe not as obvious due to the lower intensity and quality.
But, as National coach, given the rest of our pro teams are answerable to NZR, surely getting heads together and working on these issues is key?
I mean when the AB pack was at its peak, Mike Cron was doing workshops all over the place upskilling our players/coaches getting everyone on the same page (which has its own issues, but thats another conversation)
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@pakman Thanks. Interesting read.
If Foster has identified these shortcomings in the best players at his disposal, it feeds into something @Victor-Meldrew has said in previous posts about there being a long-term planning issue in identifying and developing players in the NZ game that the ABs need to play the way they want to.
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@stodders said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman Thanks. Interesting read.
If Foster has identified these shortcomings in the best players at his disposal, it feeds into something @Victor-Meldrew has said in previous posts about there being a long-term planning issue in identifying and developing players in the NZ game that the ABs need to play the way they want to.
By that last statement, I am not absolving Foster of his poor coaching performance to date. The rest of the world have caught up in terms of skills and fitness. As before, NZ has to innovate to stay ahead.
If the players aren't skilled enough to fit the game plan Foster wants the team to play, it is his job to find a different game plan that best suits the skills of the players he has at his disposal. On this measure, he is failing.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Here's a genuine question: What differences to the ABs' play have been introduced in the two and a half years since Foster became head coach? He spoke after being appointed about all the fresh ideas he would bring. I'd love to hear from anyone who can identify the fresh things he's introduced to the ABs. I'm excluding the negatives: the decline in defence and attack, the gradual loss of skills, the kicking that is less and less contestable, the decline in the lineout and so on. Can anyone identify positive changes in the last couple of seasons?
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@Bones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Here's a genuine question: What differences to the ABs' play have been introduced in the two and a half years since Foster became head coach? He spoke after being appointed about all the fresh ideas he would bring. I'd love to hear from anyone who can identify the fresh things he's introduced to the ABs. I'm excluding the negatives: the decline in defence and attack, the gradual loss of skills, the kicking that is less and less contestable, the decline in the lineout and so on. Can anyone identify positive changes in the last couple of seasons?
Samson effect. Bring back the long hair!
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Foster's voice reminds me of slow-moving oozing chocolate sauce, enveloping all in its wake with a sweet cloud of soothing mediocrity. Calmly explaining in slippery corporate speak why what we see is actually not what we see and why the team always has learnings and work-ons after the fact rather than preventing the problems from occurring in the first place. Things are explained in terms of feelings rather than plain facts. The most idiotic decisions are calmly explained with outdated brainless platitudes
Case in point - asked why he selected Dane Coles on the bench and demoted Samisoni. Cue soothing voice -
- "We wanted to give all the hookers a run."
The players (were) doing okay in spite of him, but eventually the lack of coaching nous (combined with some pretty average assistants) has us where we are now.
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@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
Author was Nick Bishop.
In fact Meads debuted at flanker and also played
Eight early on. [Could have] Did play[ed] back row with ease!
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@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
Author was Nick Bishop.
Must watch out for him
In fact Meads debuted at flanker and also played Eight early on. [Could have] Did play[ed] back row with ease!
Yeah, really skilled forwards were quite common then - props scoring drop goals, locks appearing in midfield and sidestepping opposition backs and others doing off-loads that SBW would die for. Far less bulky than now, of course, and the game was played at a much slower pace but the skills have always been there.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
Author was Nick Bishop.
Must watch out for him
In fact Meads debuted at flanker and also played Eight early on. [Could have] Did play[ed] back row with ease!
Yeah, really skilled forwards were quite common then - props scoring drop goals, locks appearing in midfield and sidestepping opposition backs and others doing off-loads that SBW would die for. Far less bulky than now, of course, and the game was played at a much slower pace but the skills have always been there.
He posts some good analysis on Roar too, but it is written predominantly for the Australian audience.
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@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
Burned by Beirne: Is the All Blacks engine room coming off the rails?
The selection of tough, mobile second rows has always been a point of difference in New Zealand’s favour - until now.
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@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
Burned by Beirne: Is the All Blacks engine room coming off the rails?
The selection of tough, mobile second rows has always been a point of difference in New Zealand’s favour - until now.
No doubt at all the Beirne is a class player. I can't see the connection between his class and the ABs though.
Shorter story is that we used to be ahead of the pack because we played with a speed of thought that our players grew up with as a natural way of playing whereas NH players didn't quite come to the same levels of instinctiveness in handling and running. We spread it from the backs to the forwards while their backs were still getting there but now, not only have they caught up but their larger playing numbers, money, coaching setups etc have helped them find players to get past us.This is generational stuff not just 'smarter play'. They used to scoff at our basketball rugby while secretly admiring it at copying it.
The playing field isn't just level now it has tipped their way and the sooner we acknowledge that the better.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
That's one heck of a post, mate, and one of the best analysis of where the problems lie. Where are the new Whitelocks and Retallicks right now who have played a few Tests and are bedded in as the incumbents replacements?
Think Colin Meads before 1995, and Ian Jones after the professional threshold. Both could have played back-row in the modern game with ease.
I don't think people realise how skilful players in that era were . They think of Meads as big fast, hard lock but he had exceptional ball handling skills and played one Test on the wing.
Author was Nick Bishop.
Must watch out for him
In fact Meads debuted at flanker and also played Eight early on. [Could have] Did play[ed] back row with ease!
Yeah, really skilled forwards were quite common then - props scoring drop goals, locks appearing in midfield and sidestepping opposition backs and others doing off-loads that SBW would die for. Far less bulky than now, of course, and the game was played at a much slower pace but the skills have always been there.
Check out Pinetree at 56 and at 1.38:
Can remember an early SBW run/stroll for the ABs, ball in one hand, and thinking how it reminded me of the Tree.
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@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
Burned by Beirne: Is the All Blacks engine room coming off the rails?
The selection of tough, mobile second rows has always been a point of difference in New Zealand’s favour - until now.
No doubt at all the Beirne is a class player. I can't see the connection between his class and the ABs though.
Shorter story is that we used to be ahead of the pack because we played with a speed of thought that our players grew up with as a natural way of playing whereas NH players didn't quite come to the same levels of instinctiveness in handling and running. We spread it from the backs to the forwards while their backs were still getting there but now, not only have they caught up but their larger playing numbers, money, coaching setups etc have helped them find players to get past us.This is generational stuff not just 'smarter play'. They used to scoff at our basketball rugby while secretly admiring it at copying it.
The playing field isn't just level now it has tipped their way and the sooner we acknowledge that the better.
Ireland have fewer players than NZ, less revenues (€84m Vs €116m), had a €10m deficit last financial year Vs NZ who just posted a profit after 4 years of deficits.
If money was everything, England would be far and away no.1.
Ireland have had a plan, put structures in place to implement it and have extracted the maximum out of their player base (indigenous and naturalised) through good coaching and their provinces working together for he good of Irish rugby but at the same time keeping their independent playing styles.
A lot like the NZ model, no? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery 😊
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@stodders said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Crucial said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@booboo said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@pakman I've added the link to the original Rugby Pass article.
Burned by Beirne: Is the All Blacks engine room coming off the rails?
The selection of tough, mobile second rows has always been a point of difference in New Zealand’s favour - until now.
No doubt at all the Beirne is a class player. I can't see the connection between his class and the ABs though.
Shorter story is that we used to be ahead of the pack because we played with a speed of thought that our players grew up with as a natural way of playing whereas NH players didn't quite come to the same levels of instinctiveness in handling and running. We spread it from the backs to the forwards while their backs were still getting there but now, not only have they caught up but their larger playing numbers, money, coaching setups etc have helped them find players to get past us.This is generational stuff not just 'smarter play'. They used to scoff at our basketball rugby while secretly admiring it at copying it.
The playing field isn't just level now it has tipped their way and the sooner we acknowledge that the better.
Ireland have fewer players than NZ, less revenues (€84m Vs €116m), had a €10m deficit last financial year Vs NZ who just posted a profit after 4 years of deficits.
If money was everything, England would be far and away no.1.
Ireland have had a plan, put structures in place to implement it and have extracted the maximum out of their player base (indigenous and naturalised) through good coaching and their provinces working together for he good of Irish rugby but at the same time keeping their independent playing styles.
A lot like the NZ model, no? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery 😊
The comments weren’t all directed at Ireland. However money still plays a part whether it is employing non national coaches and players or, over a generation, luring non Irish players into internal comps to spread the “gospel” and lift the standard.
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@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@chchfanatic said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Machpants would you like to put a wager on it. You name the price.
if @chchfanatic is that confident he is probably right.He has a source, Some things he has told me have been dead right.
The first leg of Leon coming in sounds highly likely.
It's already rumoured and Mooar's departure leaves space.
The rest would mean Fozzie is already a dead man walking. Might be contingent on improvement or lack of it.
Quite a logical plan, though - even if Joe doesn't ever take the reins.
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Hansen not happy, you can put some of this on him, we stagnated from late in his time at the helm to now, plus he endorsed Fozzie so this tarnishes his rep too.
