The Current State of Rugby
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@junior said in The Current State of Rugby:
@mooshld said in The Current State of Rugby:
@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
This might have already been posted, but here goes. Shag telling it like it is
He's not wrong but his timing sucks. Say this just after you've won because of a favourable ruling people may listen. But say it now it'll be seen as sour grapes.
All due respect to the man, but he is preaching to the converted. He needs to be talking to the administrators, journalists, pundits and fans in the NH who think there's nothing wrong with the game and that it is incumbent on players and coaches "to do better".
There’s certainly an element within the pundits that trot out that mantra, though I think in private it might be different. A bit of “toeing the party line” to keep your job. Rugby fans in general up here though have much the same doubts and concerns about the state of the game today.
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@junior said in The Current State of Rugby:
@stodders said in The Current State of Rugby:
Any tackle above the sternum will become illegal. Can’t see how they can hold it off for much longer. The subjectivity of what constitutes a red or not is just too great. If you tackle above the sternum, you get sent off. Players have the choice to go low or have an early bath.
That's the way I can see this being resolved from both a playing perspective, and a liability perspective. Tacklers must go low. This will (presumably) reduce the incidences of head contact, but will also (presumably) allow for more offloads.
The other side of this coin, though, has to be that the ball carrier has to run high - otherwise, you'll just get attackers ducking into tackles and just as much (if not more) head contact. However, I don't know how you encourage players who've been told there whole lives to keep their body heights low to suddenly start running high knowing that it will probably mean that they get smashed more often than usual.
Yep. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I was at a dinner and Q&A with Rob Baxter a couple of years ago and there was a question about de-powering scrums to stop constant re-sets and he highlighted the knock on effects of such a strategy.
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The officiating from every angle is what is doing my head in and I think the single biggest thing WR can do to improve things is to stop changing the bloody rules and guidelines every few months. We had loads of issues about jumping in the air a few years back and that soon settled down as the rules were clear and constant.
Sticking to a single set of rules and/or guidelines for at least a season or two would help bed down consistency and make life a heck of a lot easier for Refs, players and spectators alike - and reduce the need for the TMO.
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@Catogrande said in The Current State of Rugby:
@junior said in The Current State of Rugby:
@stodders said in The Current State of Rugby:
Any tackle above the sternum will become illegal. Can’t see how they can hold it off for much longer. The subjectivity of what constitutes a red or not is just too great. If you tackle above the sternum, you get sent off. Players have the choice to go low or have an early bath.
That's the way I can see this being resolved from both a playing perspective, and a liability perspective. Tacklers must go low. This will (presumably) reduce the incidences of head contact, but will also (presumably) allow for more offloads.
The other side of this coin, though, has to be that the ball carrier has to run high - otherwise, you'll just get attackers ducking into tackles and just as much (if not more) head contact. However, I don't know how you encourage players who've been told there whole lives to keep their body heights low to suddenly start running high knowing that it will probably mean that they get smashed more often than usual.
Yep. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I was at a dinner and Q&A with Rob Baxter a couple of years ago and there was a question about de-powering scrums to stop constant re-sets and he highlighted the knock on effects of such a strategy.
This type of second-order thinking is exactly why you don't, and will never, work in rugby administration.
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@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
Good article by Nigel. How can WR get this so wrong? Their rejection of the 20-minute rule was idiotic (Nigel I think agreed with this WR decision though)
I also like the idea of reviewing and making the final decision later to let the game continue. But just accept that the caliber of the decisions will be all over the place so 20-minute rule to be fair. And not ruin a game. that leads to pissed off fans and a few idiots threatening refs.
*“What's more, it's not doing anything to eliminate the controversy. At the moment there are red cards being given for highly contentious incidents, and it's in danger of spoiling the appeal of the game for supporters.
“I also think that when you have these sorts of red cards dished out for debatable decisions, it does open referees up to the sort of abuse we've seen recently.*
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@junior said in The Current State of Rugby:
@stodders said in The Current State of Rugby:
Any tackle above the sternum will become illegal. Can’t see how they can hold it off for much longer. The subjectivity of what constitutes a red or not is just too great. If you tackle above the sternum, you get sent off. Players have the choice to go low or have an early bath.
That's the way I can see this being resolved from both a playing perspective, and a liability perspective. Tacklers must go low. This will (presumably) reduce the incidences of head contact, but will also (presumably) allow for more offloads.
The other side of this coin, though, has to be that the ball carrier has to run high - otherwise, you'll just get attackers ducking into tackles and just as much (if not more) head contact. However, I don't know how you encourage players who've been told there whole lives to keep their body heights low to suddenly start running high knowing that it will probably mean that they get smashed more often than usual.
Club rugby here now, a "late dip" by the ball carrier is illegal and gets penalised.
Edit: of course that's in combination with having to tackle below the nipple line (in theory, but this just translates to below the shoulder in practice)
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I just thinking on weekend, I must be getting old (I am) or the game needs something. I tend to be a rugby nerd, I watch everything on tv , will go to up to 2-3 live games on Saturady during school/club season followed by super games on tv.etc, even when in Aus never missed hardly a game on tv, including super, tests, NPC etc and then would watch NH club stuff.
But I decided this week, a break from it won't hurt, just something is happening to the game that is starting to pall for me. I think the whole WC I noticed for first time I missed more games than I ever have, and admit the NPC was holding much more interest and entertainment to me. Not sure if it the TMO involvements are starting to tire me out etc, or even perhaps the fact I do enjoy going on rugby forums and find the negativity on some of these kind of get to you, I do enjoy discussing rugby so why I do it. I will say this is by far the best of any forums etc with less of the negative etc shit in general, I know there a few but not many.
As I said maybe just me, but I genuinely not unhappy season finish.
Lol who needs me anyway, I just one old fella anyway huh?
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@Dan54 It's bloody sad really. Plenty of us tragics being turned off the game. My Dad is 87 and been passionate about rugby all his life, even he has had enough. We usually enjoy arguing about various aspects of the game but we both agree that we aren't in love with it anymore. Hopefully it will be recognised by law makers / officials and then someone will let us know when it is worth watching again. The first step would be to keep equal numbers of players on the field somehow, and punish individuals for genuine foul play, not the droves of fans who (used to) watch.
I'm going to try not to mention it on here anymore because the negativity is tiresome for others, but when I see a comment like yours it is worth noting that you are not alone. Who knows maybe someone who could actually do something might notice a comment here and there and actually get something changed.
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Hey mate, I think when we have a World Cup year then there is a huge amount of time and investment goes into it from guys like yourself. It’s natural to think more and discuss it more and to watch more games.
It’s probably pretty natural to want to have a break after all that!
I did after 2019 and didn’t really watch much Rigby for a year or so after that!
I’m sure after a good summer you will be back into it 😉
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@DaGrubster Oh I will still watch etc, but I have never been so disillusioned for some reason Grubs. I am usually even after WCs, just looking for more , but as I said thie is first time I have genuinely not bothered with a lot of the games in the WC, and genuinely thought I watched better rugby in the NPC.
All I mean is I have never wanted a break from rugby in my life, now I do.
The worry is with the proposed new test comp starting in a couple of years we may get more of same .
I can genuinely say I wander down to golf club and more people have been same, finding lower level (NPC) rugby more ineteresting and enjoyable. It's not good for our game. -
I agree with the sentiment here, rugby's become increasingly complicated to the point where it's incredibly difficult to explain the game to a casual viewer let alone someone who hasn't seen the game before.
Getting both teams to keep 15 players on the field seems an increasingly forlorn hope these days. Accidents with no intent are now red card offences - hence simple luck (or bad luck) can play a huge role in the outcome of the game.
The game is getting harder and harder to understand, and harder and harder to watch.
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@Windows97 it is a simple game, made complicated by the rules/guidelines.
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@Windows97 said in The Current State of Rugby:
I agree with the sentiment here, rugby's become increasingly complicated to the point where it's incredibly difficult to explain the game to a casual viewer let alone someone who hasn't seen the game before.
Getting both teams to keep 15 players on the field seems an increasingly forlorn hope these days. Accidents with no intent are now red card offences - hence simple luck (or bad luck) can play a huge role in the outcome of the game.
The game is getting harder and harder to understand, and harder and harder to watch.
And yet we are led to believe there are lots of places, such as the NH, where they like the direction rugby is heading in. Or am I mistaken?
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@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Windows97 said in The Current State of Rugby:
I agree with the sentiment here, rugby's become increasingly complicated to the point where it's incredibly difficult to explain the game to a casual viewer let alone someone who hasn't seen the game before.
Getting both teams to keep 15 players on the field seems an increasingly forlorn hope these days. Accidents with no intent are now red card offences - hence simple luck (or bad luck) can play a huge role in the outcome of the game.
The game is getting harder and harder to understand, and harder and harder to watch.
And yet we are led to believe there are lots of places, such as the NH, where they like the direction rugby is heading in. Or am I mistaken?
This direction? Incredibly short sighted
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A few weeks on from the RWC and I haven't watched any rugby since - not even any highlights. Just like I followed Cricket with a passion and then simply lost interest, I'm starting to get the same vibes about Rugby. Reasons?
Refereeing: Not the referee's as I think they do a pretty good job overall but the erratic, constantly changing, re-assessed, re-applied, dis-applied rules around tackling, TMO input, disciplinary outcomes and, well, just about everything. I want a game of rugby, not a fucking lottery where some bloke in a truck randomly sees something and acts on it.
Rules: I'm not thick or senile, but struggle to keep up with the changes and variances between countries and tournaments. No the only one - a local bloke who's a pretty good ref admitted he gets as confused as me.
Supporters (some of). Maybe a transitory thing but there seems to be way too much tribalism creeping in with booing and taunting the players. Not to be confused with passion, groaning at a decision or chanting/singing support for your team. Twickenham was appalling 10-15 years ago for this but the atmosphere has been great recently with maybe more passion than ever.
Respect: One of the great things about Rugby was its total opposite to the cynicism you see in Soccer. Not any more as the dividing line is getting blurrier and blurrier. The abuse handed out to the officials at this RWC was bang out of order. Criticise the Ref by all means but death threats? Threats to kill his family?
Player attitudes: There's always been dickheads but (maybe I'm just old) there now seems more of them and their actions now almost seem to be not only tolerated but celebrated. Sexton may be a great 10 but he's one fucking awful rugby player.
Journalists. Acerbic analysis is great but we now seem to have a competition on who can be the most insulting, ignorant and stir up the most trouble. The same loons who say spent years attacking Umaga are now complaining about the mental pressure put on Farrell....by the media. Wise up arseholes - you're the ones who incubated this poisonous shit.
Coaches. They aren't more important than the players, aren't gods, miracle-workers or rocket scientists. Waving coloured lights about or saying "We have to improve our defence and kicking game" doesn't make you a genius or savior of the universe. Time we stopped thinking they are and putting them on a pedestal or casting them into the 9th level of Hell.
Smaller nations. Constantly screwed by the money men and the bigger nations. I'd love to see more of the likes of Portugal and Georgia against top-flight sides (even the top sides B teams). Fat chance, so I'm calling World Rugby's bullshit on growing the game.
Could go on and there are good things like the women's game, but I shake my head about the state of the game overall and where it is going.
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You've missed some great rugby from England and the URC
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@Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:
A few weeks on from the RWC and I haven't watched any rugby since - not even any highlights. Just like I followed Cricket with a passion and then simply lost interest, I'm starting to get the same vibes about Rugby. Reasons?
Refereeing: Not the referee's as I think they do a pretty good job overall but the erratic, constantly changing, re-assessed, re-applied, dis-applied rules around tackling, TMO input, disciplinary outcomes and, well, just about everything. I want a game of rugby, not a fucking lottery where some bloke in a truck randomly sees something and acts on it.
Rules: I'm not thick or senile, but struggle to keep up with the changes and variances between countries and tournaments. No the only one - a local bloke who's a pretty good ref admitted he gets as confused as me.
Supporters (some of). Maybe a transitory thing but there seems to be way too much tribalism creeping in with booing and taunting the players. Not to be confused with passion, groaning at a decision or chanting/singing support for your team. Twickenham was appalling 10-15 years ago for this but the atmosphere has been great recently with maybe more passion than ever.
Respect: One of the great things about Rugby was its total opposite to the cynicism you see in Soccer. Not any more as the dividing line is getting blurrier and blurrier. The abuse handed out to the officials at this RWC was bang out of order. Criticise the Ref by all means but death threats? Threats to kill his family?
Player attitudes: There's always been dickheads but (maybe I'm just old) there now seems more of them and their actions now almost seem to be not only tolerated but celebrated. Sexton may be a great 10 but he's one fucking awful rugby player.
Journalists. Acerbic analysis is great but we now seem to have a competition on who can be the most insulting, ignorant and stir up the most trouble. The same loons who say spent years attacking Umaga are now complaining about the mental pressure put on Farrell....by the media. Wise up arseholes - you're the ones who incubated this poisonous shit.
Coaches. They aren't more important than the players, aren't gods, miracle-workers or rocket scientists. Waving coloured lights about or saying "We have to improve our defence and kicking game" doesn't make you a genius or savior of the universe. Time we stopped thinking they are and putting them on a pedestal or casting them into the 9th level of Hell.
Smaller nations. Constantly screwed by the money men and the bigger nations. I'd love to see more of the likes of Portugal and Georgia against top-flight sides (even the top sides B teams). Fat chance, so I'm calling World Rugby's bullshit on growing the game.
Could go on and there are good things like the women's game, but I shake my head about the state of the game overall and where it is going.
You’re bang on about respect.
We’re all showing too little of it. Almost everything else you mentioned is a function of that global problem.
Thing is, nothing hurts like losing a rugby game. It’s what makes winning feel so fucking good. Come out on top and the lost teeth, busted rib, strained hammy, crushed nut were all worth it cause the beers are sweeter and the bar trolls look or at least feel like Jenna Jameson. Lose and the pain intensifies, beer’s flat and you suddenly can’t maintain your suspension of disbelief in the foxiness of the low resolution foxes. Somehow that carries through from playing to supporting.
Faced with the reality that they’re gonna wake up tomorrow as losers, in pain lying next to some STD riddled munter, the the temptation is to look for someone to blame. Instead they should show some self-respect and acknowledge their own mistakes and missed chances are a big reason they’ve booked their urethras a date with the long qtip of ignominy. Hell, a little self-respect earlier could’ve avoided it altogether: sometimes you can play brilliantly and lose. And walk away with your head held high (or as high as your ruined neck will allow.)
And while you’re at it you can show respect to the team that beat you. Because, no mistake those points didn’t get on the board themselves and you damn sure didn’t put them there. Those smug fluffybunnies out their bodies on the line at least as determinedly as you did and played the conditions (including the ref) better. The least you can do is show them the respect they earned.
Funny thing about respecting your opponent’s’ performance is that it makes winning sweeter and losing easier to take.
in a slightly different way, the lack of respect for refs is part of a negative feedback loop that’s awful for the game.
If we really love the game and respect what makes it special - applied violence to win a variety of complex but fair contests - then we have to respect that it’s rules are and will remain impossible to arbitrate and enforce perfectly. Refs are going to make mistakes sometimes big ones. That’s part of the game, just like it’s part of the game that you knocked on with the line begging, dickfingers, or let their mouthy ruck rat run right over you. If we can tolerate our teammates’ mistakes because they’re a rock at scrumtime even if they do have hands like a digital watch, and can forgive our fullback for being a revolving door because there is literally no one else, then we should be prepared to forgive refs when they make a shit call in real time.
The more we do that, the more we show real love and respect for the chaotic, complex nature of our game and the impossible job refs have, the more they will reward that respect with games that aren’t ruined by constant, pedantic whistling for shit that didn’t impact the game.
