Depth at 10
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@westcoastie said in Depth at 10:
Honestly, don't think our first choice 10's are the problem. BB looked more than adequate in 2016-17 - he's clearly kept working on elements of his game. Every single other 10 in the world would like poop behind our pack right now, the problems are exasperated when we don't have Aaron Smith at 9 (although I don't think Weber or Christie are that bad) - its just time for TJ to go.
Josh Ioane isn't the answer, he does some good stuff in the NPC, but even there he doesn't look world class.Fix the forwards.
Get Gilbert on the job.
Fix the AB's.While I understand what you're saying, I do think both our 10's ARE a problem when our pack isn't dominant. Plenty of 10's around who look a million bucks behind a dominant pack, but there are a precious few that can boss a game when you're going backwards. The ability to rake a monster clearance to relieve pressure, the ability to kick off both feet when scrambling (I'm not sure RM has a left at all BTW), the cool head to know when to spin it to the backs or to keep it in tight and run inside channels.
I don't watch enough Super rugby anymore (let alone NPC or club stuff) to have any answers for this thread, but I do agree we need to look beyond BB and RM.
BB has never been a natural 10, but his athleticism and eye for a gap meant it didn't matter - you just wanted the ball in his hands as much as possible, RM to me has never been of that quality, he looks mint when everything else goes his way, but that's so rarely the case.
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I haven't read the match thread yet but I take it RM has come in for plenty of criticism.
The wider problem to me is that the way we play in SR isn't the best for developing how a 1st 5 needs to play in test rugby. Mo'unga, especially, always has much more time and space behind the Crusaders forward pack than he will ever get at international level. It's no surprise that he has looked best for the ABs against Aust, who play a similar style to NZ.
None of the NZ SR teams employ the same aggressive rush defence that the NH teams and SA do. We really need to start using this defensive system ourselves so our players can adapt to playing against it.
Having a larger, more robust 1st 5 can be an advantage so Sullivan could be an option. He needs a couple of years playing there for the Blues to answer that question.
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@bovidae said in Depth at 10:
Having a larger, more robust 1st 5 can be an advantage so Sullivan could be an option. He needs a couple of years playing there for the Blues to answer that question.
Were you the one that saw him play 10 for the Blues Dev side and struggle? What was wrong?
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@bovidae said in Depth at 10:
None of the NZ SR teams employ the same aggressive rush defence that the NH teams and SA do. We really need to start using this defensive system ourselves so our players can adapt to playing against it.
hopefully that will change with Gats and Schmidt involved next year, or at least employ ways to better deal with it, cos its clear the last 2 coaching regimes have struggled.
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@duluth said in Depth at 10:
@bovidae said in Depth at 10:
Having a larger, more robust 1st 5 can be an advantage so Sullivan could be an option. He needs a couple of years playing there for the Blues to answer that question.
Were you the one that saw him play 10 for the Blues Dev side and struggle? What was wrong?
IIRC he didn't really control the game, and his passing was poor. Or maybe Gatland played well.
Sullivan is a better player now but seems to be like Love, i.e., a schoolboy 1st 5 who then plays more at fullback once he leaves school.
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@bovidae said in Depth at 10:
I haven't read the match thread yet but I take it RM has come in for plenty of criticism.
The wider problem to me is that the way we play in SR isn't the best for developing how a 1st 5 needs to play in test rugby. Mo'unga, especially, always has much more time and space behind the Crusaders forward pack than he will ever get at international level. It's no surprise that he has looked best for the ABs against Aust, who play a similar style to NZ.
None of the NZ SR teams employ the same aggressive rush defence that the NH teams and SA do. We really need to start using this defensive system ourselves so our players can adapt to playing against it.
Having a larger, more robust 1st 5 can be an advantage so Sullivan could be an option. He needs a couple of years playing there for the Blues to answer that question.
So, Jordie then....
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@voodoo said in Depth at 10:
@bovidae said in Depth at 10:
I haven't read the match thread yet but I take it RM has come in for plenty of criticism.
The wider problem to me is that the way we play in SR isn't the best for developing how a 1st 5 needs to play in test rugby. Mo'unga, especially, always has much more time and space behind the Crusaders forward pack than he will ever get at international level. It's no surprise that he has looked best for the ABs against Aust, who play a similar style to NZ.
None of the NZ SR teams employ the same aggressive rush defence that the NH teams and SA do. We really need to start using this defensive system ourselves so our players can adapt to playing against it.
Having a larger, more robust 1st 5 can be an advantage so Sullivan could be an option. He needs a couple of years playing there for the Blues to answer that question.
So, Jordie then....
Or Havili?
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@gt12 or TJ could re-invent himself at 10...
but gee the cupboard is bare.
I think both RM & BB have the ability, but our forwards arent giving them the platform they need, plus they dont have a plan b when the platform isnt there, which is a coaching issue, but tbf, both struggle at super when the heat is on too, so yeah.
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@taniwharugby said in Depth at 10:
@gt12 or TJ could re-invent himself at 10...
but gee the cupboard is bare.
I think both RM & BB have the ability, but our forwards arent giving them the platform they need, plus they dont have a plan b when the platform isnt there, which is a coaching issue, but tbf, both struggle at super when the heat is on too, so yeah.
I actually quite liked him at 10 the couple of times I saw him there for the Hurricanes. Incredible short-passing game (as one would expect)
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I hope Dmac concentrates on 10 in Japan as insurance for NZ. He has the best vision and skill set. Zarn Sullivan Harry Plummer and Campbell Parata from Ta$man look to be the ones with most upward potential for me.
Richie M is still gaining test experience and may improve markedly. He just needs to develop his vision and organise those around him to exploit gaps and create opportunities. Currently he let's the game come to him until he sees a gap he can run into himself. -
@arhs said in Depth at 10:
I hope Dmac concentrates on 10 in Japan as insurance for NZ. He has the best vision and skill set. Zarn Sullivan Harry Plummer and Campbell Parata from Ta$man look to be the ones with most upward potential for me.
Richie M is still gaining test experience and may improve markedly. He just needs to develop his vision and organise those around him to exploit gaps and create opportunities. Currently he let's the game come to him until he sees a gap he can run into himself.This is the best explanation of my problem with Mo'unga, although honestly it seems to be a problem with the whole team of 'drivers'.
They react to what is in front of them rather than creating.
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I'm of the view that Mo'unga is actually a pretty bloody good player. I've seen him play a lot of good games, including against decent opposition, including when the Crusaders haven't been super dominant up front. I've also seen the Crusaders go very rapidly to shit against teams they would normally beat comfortably, when RM doesn't play through injury.
He played very poorly tonight.
I think some of that is pressure and getting up to speed with the higher level, and I think a bigger part of it is being part of a dysfunctional team, who doesn't know who there first choice line-up is, or what is expected of each of them, or who is in charge. The dual playmakers with BB and RM was shit as both were used to being the lead voice, and sharing it just confused the issue. It worked better with DM at fullback, but then they went for JB (after playing him on the fucking wing for christ's sake), and then chopped and changed between RM and BB. It's been a mess.
And the midfield is musical chairs.
And we've been using multiple halfbacks and #8s.Frankly it reminds me of Pat Lam coaching the Blues.
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@reprobate said in Depth at 10:
I'm of the view that Mo'unga is actually a pretty bloody good player. I've seen him play a lot of good games, including against decent opposition, including when the Crusaders haven't been super dominant up front. I've also seen the Crusaders go very rapidly to shit against teams they would normally beat comfortably, when RM doesn't play through injury.
He played very poorly tonight.
I think some of that is pressure and getting up to speed with the higher level, and I think a bigger part of it is being part of a dysfunctional team, who doesn't know who there first choice line-up is, or what is expected of each of them, or who is in charge. The dual playmakers with BB and RM was shit as both were used to being the lead voice, and sharing it just confused the issue. It worked better with DM at fullback, but then they went for JB (after playing him on the fucking wing for christ's sake), and then chopped and changed between RM and BB. It's been a mess.
And the midfield is musical chairs.
And we've been using multiple halfbacks and #8s.Frankly it reminds me of Pat Lam coaching the Blues.
Ouch.
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Mo'unga was poor last night and sadly not for the first time in the Northern Hemisphere. He struggled with both decision making and skill execution. It wasn't just that he was struggling with the rush defence. There was no passion or urgency to his play. He didn't drive the game at all. Perhaps, he just doesn't enjoy playing in Europe?
Given the next World Cup is in France, Beauden Barrett will obviously be first-choice 10. I would be looking to develop other players like Mitchell Hunt, Josh Ioane or Otere Black as back-up First Fives for the RWC.
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@arhs said in Depth at 10:
...Richie M is still gaining test experience and may improve markedly. He just needs to develop ...
After four years an All Black and 33 matches? Of course ... 🤣🤣
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@sparky as I was reminded earlier Black has left the building.
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@mick-gold-coast-qld said in Depth at 10:
@arhs said in Depth at 10:
...Richie M is still gaining test experience and may improve markedly. He just needs to develop ...
After four years an All Black and 33 matches? Of course ... 🤣🤣
We've experienced his experience and he doesn't look like a World Cup player.
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@crazy-horse Hope the Hurricane pick him up. They are showing a lot of faith in Aidan Morgan and Reuban Love.
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Our pack laid a platform today and the backs didn't know what to fucking do with it
Our 2 tens are the same player, one just has more experience. I think BB is.all sorts.of ordinary but he's clearly the better test player
Both should be sent away to watch Aaron Cruden film, a player with less talent, less size, but at least knew how to attack in test football.
Running sideways is for kids.
