The All Black's current midfield balance.
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@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
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Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
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@Bovidae yeah, I remember DC talking about how much he enjoyed having Nonu outside him as he always had a bail out option if needed.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
Yep, it's grimace inducing when he just gets caught upright facing his own line behind the advantage line and looks for that one handed offload to a player standing still right next to him. We all can easily flashback on that regular occurrence...
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@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
Yeah they 100% caught us off guard with that.
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@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
Are we talking about the subbing of the front row, like 3 minutes before half time? I don't really see how that's a masterstroke.
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
Are we talking about the subbing of the front row, like 3 minutes before half time? I don't really see how that's a masterstroke.
They got a couple of minutes to get into the game then were all over us with fresh legs right from the second half whistle
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@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
Are we talking about the subbing of the front row, like 3 minutes before half time? I don't really see how that's a masterstroke.
They got a couple of minutes to get into the game then were all over us with fresh legs right from the second half whistle
They also had 15 minutes to get "cold" again - they were just better players than the starters, clearly, so I'm not sure how much of a "masterstroke" it was to bring on better players and risk them getting injured, when there wasn't any need. I wouldn't expect to see them do this "masterstroke" too often - they got lucky.
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
Are we talking about the subbing of the front row, like 3 minutes before half time? I don't really see how that's a masterstroke.
They got a couple of minutes to get into the game then were all over us with fresh legs right from the second half whistle
They also had 15 minutes to get "cold" again - they were just better players than the starters, clearly, so I'm not sure how much of a "masterstroke" it was to bring on better players and risk them getting injured, when there wasn't any need. I wouldn't expect to see them do this "masterstroke" too often - they got lucky.
Desperation breeds innovation I guess. And I'd we hadn't muffed our lines at the end it wouldn't have paid off
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
Even if it went to hand, it was a completely shit call because Rieko was well-covered by Mapimpi. Scratch that, it's a completely shit call in almost any circumstances
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@junior said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
Even if it went to hand, it was a completely shit call because Rieko was well-covered by Mapimpi. Scratch that, it's a completely shit call in almost any circumstances
My recollection was that we were in trouble if it didn't go out - thought there was only a bok out there with a good amount of space? If so, great execution BB!
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well, but as alluded to earlier, the backline seems to stand very flat, making it hard to put them into space at pace.
The thing is, the flatness wouldn't be an issue if the line was in motion. It's hard to get a pass away that creates a hole in the defence if the defence is closing in at pace, and the attackers are just starting to accelerate.
I honestly just don't get the strategy at the moment, and a lot of tries that we've scored against Aus and Arg seem to be from broken play, where we have superior skills and seem to make great decisions, and where their scramble defence seems to struggle.
Would love to see someone like squidge examine it tbh. Surely there's something I'm missing, because the coaches and players are supposed to be the best in the world, and most of them have lived and breathed rugby their whole lives. So why do they look so ordinary when there's a defensive line in front of them?
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@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
Fully agree. A backline in motion gives the first five all the options. A static one gives him two or three, none of which are great.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
Agreed. When I coach I always tell first fives that they have to go forward first to prevent the defence sliding, even if it's only two steps and don't take the ball standing still. The difference it makes for outsides is immense.
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@delicatessen David Havilli was never going to be a longterm solution in the centres anyway. His utility value at the Crusaders is immense, covering fullback, five eights, centre and probably wing if I am not mistaken. That is possibly where his future maybe in the future. Surprised no one has talked about him being a backup five eight. It is a shame they can't take Lecester on the EOYT.
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@antipodean said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
Agreed. When I coach I always tell first fives that they have to go forward first to prevent the defence sliding, even if it's only two steps and don't take the ball standing still. The difference it makes for outsides is immense.
Being an ex 2nd five/centre you have nailed it,It makes a Hugh difference, to stop sliding sideways you only have a few options in the MF to a static First Five, straighten up which can lead to turnovers or try to have some manupliation of the defence with inside runners,Dummy runners or cut out passes.Somewhere you have to go forward in the Mf or create quick space outside you.If you have nothing happening outside and around you have only one option crash ball in the MF then you need very quick ball,Good aggressive cleaners to carry the momentum.or we get what we did against SA a heavy defence that we are slow or to lazy or dumb to hit hard enough so we have dominance by the opposition at the breakdown,A recurring theme with this AB's this season and last season.
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@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
Fully agree. A backline in motion gives the first five all the options. A static one gives him two or three, none of which are great.
I wonder if the obsession of playing the game at pace doesn't help sometimes. In the second half in particular, I felt that Weber and TJ were a little too quick to pass the ball, so that a couple of times neither BB nor RM looked ready to receive it. Of course, them getting the ball out too quick may have just been because the Boks were starting to drive us back off our ball (which di happen a few times).
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@junior I think just getting there and firing a pass is poor which is what some do, ideally the 9 needs to organise so you use the speed but you have options and those options know what's coming too
This is where there needs to be a bit of combination at 9-10.
BUt yeah, also requires ball security too to allow for the choice
