The All Black's current midfield balance.
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Yep agreed, That was a telling time it helped turn the game towards the Boks .
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both? It wasn't like we suddenly raised our performance once he left. But jeez it was an ugly 10 to 15 and I was happy when he got the hook
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@no-quarter said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@no-quarter said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@Chris I've said numerous times that I don't think Beauden is a natural 10, and that I thought the last performance from him was pretty typical - created two tries with sheer brilliance but didn't control the game as you'd want your 10 to when the pressure is on. So I'm not really interested in a "Beauden vs Mo'unga" debate.
To date Mo'unga has not shown an ability to control a test when the heat is on. Playing well against the Wobs when our team is bitch slapping them all over the park doesn't prove much. So far in his career he's gone missing in tests like the one on the weekend, I am far from convinced he would have fared much better, especially with someone like Havili outside him.
What 15 minutes after a 6 weeks break tough call that one.
Those wallabies who we bitch slapped toasted the Boks twice who showed us up 2 weeks in a Row.Nah, the RWC semi final and before that he has really struggled against the Boks. Like a possum in the headlights. He's fantastic in broken play or when the team is on the front foot (like Beauden actually) but to date has not shown the ability to take control of a test when we are under pressure. In fact he's done exactly the opposite, which is why I don't see him as the obvious solution at 10 against teams like the Boks.
It's hard for both Beauden and Mo'unga though, they've come in after two genuinely world class 10s in DC and Cruden so I'm naturally comparing them against that standard which is an incredibly high bar.
That said, they are by far our best 10s at the moment so we have to work with what we have.
I think if we can get some more forward dominance which has been badly lacking against the Boks,England and even the Argies in one test last year. It would help all our backs who are on the back foot because of our forwards getting beaten up.Its hard to take control if you haven’t gotten some forward control.
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@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
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Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
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@Bovidae yeah, I remember DC talking about how much he enjoyed having Nonu outside him as he always had a bail out option if needed.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
Yep, it's grimace inducing when he just gets caught upright facing his own line behind the advantage line and looks for that one handed offload to a player standing still right next to him. We all can easily flashback on that regular occurrence...
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@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
Yeah they 100% caught us off guard with that.
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@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
Are we talking about the subbing of the front row, like 3 minutes before half time? I don't really see how that's a masterstroke.
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
Are we talking about the subbing of the front row, like 3 minutes before half time? I don't really see how that's a masterstroke.
They got a couple of minutes to get into the game then were all over us with fresh legs right from the second half whistle
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@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
Are we talking about the subbing of the front row, like 3 minutes before half time? I don't really see how that's a masterstroke.
They got a couple of minutes to get into the game then were all over us with fresh legs right from the second half whistle
They also had 15 minutes to get "cold" again - they were just better players than the starters, clearly, so I'm not sure how much of a "masterstroke" it was to bring on better players and risk them getting injured, when there wasn't any need. I wouldn't expect to see them do this "masterstroke" too often - they got lucky.
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
Are we talking about the subbing of the front row, like 3 minutes before half time? I don't really see how that's a masterstroke.
They got a couple of minutes to get into the game then were all over us with fresh legs right from the second half whistle
They also had 15 minutes to get "cold" again - they were just better players than the starters, clearly, so I'm not sure how much of a "masterstroke" it was to bring on better players and risk them getting injured, when there wasn't any need. I wouldn't expect to see them do this "masterstroke" too often - they got lucky.
Desperation breeds innovation I guess. And I'd we hadn't muffed our lines at the end it wouldn't have paid off
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
Even if it went to hand, it was a completely shit call because Rieko was well-covered by Mapimpi. Scratch that, it's a completely shit call in almost any circumstances
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@junior said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
Even if it went to hand, it was a completely shit call because Rieko was well-covered by Mapimpi. Scratch that, it's a completely shit call in almost any circumstances
My recollection was that we were in trouble if it didn't go out - thought there was only a bok out there with a good amount of space? If so, great execution BB!
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well, but as alluded to earlier, the backline seems to stand very flat, making it hard to put them into space at pace.
The thing is, the flatness wouldn't be an issue if the line was in motion. It's hard to get a pass away that creates a hole in the defence if the defence is closing in at pace, and the attackers are just starting to accelerate.
I honestly just don't get the strategy at the moment, and a lot of tries that we've scored against Aus and Arg seem to be from broken play, where we have superior skills and seem to make great decisions, and where their scramble defence seems to struggle.
Would love to see someone like squidge examine it tbh. Surely there's something I'm missing, because the coaches and players are supposed to be the best in the world, and most of them have lived and breathed rugby their whole lives. So why do they look so ordinary when there's a defensive line in front of them?
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@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
Fully agree. A backline in motion gives the first five all the options. A static one gives him two or three, none of which are great.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@delicatessen said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
A first five who takes the line on every time he gets the ball isn't much of a first five. He's got to involve the rest of his backline as well
Of course there needs to be a balance. Conversely, if the 1st 5 never runs the defence will just drift out to the 2nd 5/centre, cutting down their time and space.
I agree that the alignment of the backline and the lack of players in motion is also an issue. That includes the 1st 5 who can still move forward before passing rather than being static after receiving the ball from the halfback. As an example, Kerevi's try was great to watch and a typical RL backline move.
Agreed. When I coach I always tell first fives that they have to go forward first to prevent the defence sliding, even if it's only two steps and don't take the ball standing still. The difference it makes for outsides is immense.
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@delicatessen David Havilli was never going to be a longterm solution in the centres anyway. His utility value at the Crusaders is immense, covering fullback, five eights, centre and probably wing if I am not mistaken. That is possibly where his future maybe in the future. Surprised no one has talked about him being a backup five eight. It is a shame they can't take Lecester on the EOYT.
