All Blacks vs Springboks I
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kruse said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@machpants said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@hooroo said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@oompb said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@booboo Springboks must cut out the kicking. All Blacks were there for the taking. Kwagga, Etsebeth and Fat Frans played really well. Hope they learn from this and improve on this performance.
That’s the only reason you stayed in the game. They were just playing force back. They weren’t there to play rugby. It was a disgrace to the game.
Meh, it's legal, is how everyone played not that long ago. So I think it's not great entertainment, but it's still rugby. The shit that really needs stamping on, is the cheating to get rests. Faking injuries is against the laws, and spirit, of the game. It's disgusting and the boks should be ashamed. But after ranting Rassie, I've realised they lying and faking are obviously fine for them. Rugby needs to play stoppage time like in game, if you're down, tough shit play carries on. Give them a few seconds to get playing, otherwise free kick to opposition. If it's a front row and scrum, then they have 30 seconds to either get him up or replace him.
Definitely agree with all this...
- Forceback - it's not pretty, but it is a part of rugby - and it typically sorts itself out once both teams re-org their back-line/receivers.
- Faking injuries for stoppages - is fucking atrocious.
- But... it's clearly something SA have decided is not immoral, just... "playing to the rules"
- Much like some other countries consider faking injury to draw a penalty is "fair game"...
- And, I try to think through things like this - I guess we're always talking about the "dark arts of scrummaging", and the "mysteries of the maul"... is it just a slightly different culture - drawing a slightly different crooked line between "finding the line and living on it" vs "un-sportsmanly, immoral, fucking cheating fluffybunnies"?
- "Painting a picture for the ref" at scrum or breakdown time?
- In any case - objectively or subjectively - faked injuries should be stamped out... but, how?
- I get the impression that for the Boks - it's not actually in order to get a breather - but to get the sideline staff on-field, passing coaching messages
- Perhaps the levels of fitness have dropped because of this, rather than the reverse cause-effect?
- And perhaps - it would be interesting to see if this behaviour continued with neutral medics? (I know, I know... never going to happen, but... thought experiment)
- Otherwise - yeah - it becomes very difficult to implement a fix.
- 'Neutral'/venue-supplied medics? Unworkable, and I don't see any team agreeing to this.
- Strict time limits on the injury stoppages? Cries of "player safety"
- Strict time limits on injury stoppages, but mitigated with freer reign to use the bench to replace players while they're tended to? Will be gamed by teams wanting to use the bench like NFL.
- Have a neutral medic attend the team's medics every time - and a) judge that the communications are all injury-related; and b) if possible, that the injury is genuine? That's the best fix I can think of in just 5 minutes of considering it - but... is overly complicated, introduces MORE complexity/rules, and pretty much introduces a "medical referee" member to the reffing team, flying around the world to attend internationals... which is ludicrous. Isn't it?
Referee: Nigel Owens
Assistant Referee 1: Wayne Barnes
Assistant Referee 2: Jonathan Kaplan
TMO: Ben Skeen
Medical Match Offical: Gregory House M.D.If a player goes down they should be removed from the field of play and be assessed and treated if required. During that time no subs can be put on. The injured player has to wait for a stoppage before re-entering the field. That might discourage fakers
I'd support that, but the medics will say "we need to assess before moving. Player safety!".
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@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
If ALB is fit this week I'd play him at centre and push Rieko out to the wing. Other than that, probably the same team that was initially named - so Blackadder to the bench and Jacobson No. 8.
I expect them to do that as well. Ofa still looks way off the pace but Foster and co will go with experience. We just need the AB tight forwards to front up.
Not sure what I'd do with Richie - he'd need to look sharp as a tack in training. Probably leave him out if BB is properly fit.
Yep. Mo'unga is there as insurance in case BB isn't able to play. Rieko on the wing would mean you don't need to have midfield cover on the bench, and could carry a winger like Reece to inject in the 2nd half.
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@booboo said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
So how can we prepare for next week via selections? Not that many choices. I imaginge Foster would face a bit of pressure if he picks Bridge to start again but he did keep him on the paddock a bit longer than I expected.
He's not my favourite player and he had a shocker especially in the area of expertise in which he was picked.
But I'd kind of back him to sort that and keep him there as the Bok tactics aren't changing.
He should have been dragged last night, not Jordan, but I can see him playing again next week.
The things the Boks do well on kicks is get as many players into the landing area as possible. So sometimes if you wait and try and time your run, you just won’t get into the space where the ball is going to land. Put that with the kick variations ( Jordie mentioned this ) where the ball floats and changes direction and you create those lottery situations. It’s hard because players are told they can’t run back backward into that space and give away a penalty for shielding yet with the attacking team it ( seems like it ) is a free for all with as many players as they like running into that space as early as they can i.e. before ball lands. Best defensive option currently is getting as many players as you can behind the ball and leaving it to Fullback and Wing to come forward and compete as best they can. Then the others players are set to defend or pick up loose ball.
The other way would be to have players running back competing in air as well. So not shielding but competing - then leaving players behind the ball to defend. Real change in mindset but also hard to to turn and accelerate so much more difficult.
To be honest I have always hated the box kick - used by so many teams as an exit play in NZ - not like Boks where it is their main attacking option as well. Overall it’s seems a negative play, a bit like mauls close to the line that are incredibly hard to defend. A rule change you could make is to draw a circle around the landing spot and say only players competing for ball can enter.
But for a start they should just get players on side - if you plant your foot and use your back leg to kick then it’s the back foot making contact with the ball that’s the offside line for me. That would mean about every wing in the world offside for me.
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@kruse Why did they stop the game to fix the bleeding of two players on the field. I thought the standard was the player leaves the field, is replaced, and returns once blood has been sorted. I found that really odd that the ref didnt tell the player to leave the field and play on.
I agree that something really needs to be done about it, I'm pretty confident the refs can determine a fair dinkum injury as they generally happen during general play, the majority of Bok stoppages come prior to set piece. Perhaps the set piece has to occur within a set time or its a free kick.
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@bovidae said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
If ALB is fit this week I'd play him at centre and push Rieko out to the wing. Other than that, probably the same team that was initially named - so Blackadder to the bench and Jacobson No. 8.
I expect them to do that as well. Ofa still looks way off the pace but Foster and co will go with experience. We just need the AB tight forwards to front up.
Not sure what I'd do with Richie - he'd need to look sharp as a tack in training. Probably leave him out if BB is properly fit.
Yep. Mo'unga is there as insurance in case BB isn't able to play. Rieko on the wing would mean you don't need to have midfield cover on the bench, and could carry a winger like Reece to inject in the 2nd half.
Under my never select Reece rule I'd have Mo and DMac on the bench. DMac can be injected in the wing.
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@nevorian said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
In the end, it's the result that counts.
What’s Jacobson doing there, obviously his illness not contagious
Judging by the performance yesterday almost everyone else had it as well.
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@kruse said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@machpants said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@hooroo said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@oompb said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@booboo Springboks must cut out the kicking. All Blacks were there for the taking. Kwagga, Etsebeth and Fat Frans played really well. Hope they learn from this and improve on this performance.
That’s the only reason you stayed in the game. They were just playing force back. They weren’t there to play rugby. It was a disgrace to the game.
Meh, it's legal, is how everyone played not that long ago. So I think it's not great entertainment, but it's still rugby. The shit that really needs stamping on, is the cheating to get rests. Faking injuries is against the laws, and spirit, of the game. It's disgusting and the boks should be ashamed. But after ranting Rassie, I've realised they lying and faking are obviously fine for them. Rugby needs to play stoppage time like in game, if you're down, tough shit play carries on. Give them a few seconds to get playing, otherwise free kick to opposition. If it's a front row and scrum, then they have 30 seconds to either get him up or replace him.
Definitely agree with all this...
- Forceback - it's not pretty, but it is a part of rugby - and it typically sorts itself out once both teams re-org their back-line/receivers.
- Faking injuries for stoppages - is fucking atrocious.
- But... it's clearly something SA have decided is not immoral, just... "playing to the rules"
- Much like some other countries consider faking injury to draw a penalty is "fair game"...
- And, I try to think through things like this - I guess we're always talking about the "dark arts of scrummaging", and the "mysteries of the maul"... is it just a slightly different culture - drawing a slightly different crooked line between "finding the line and living on it" vs "un-sportsmanly, immoral, fucking cheating fluffybunnies"?
- "Painting a picture for the ref" at scrum or breakdown time?
- In any case - objectively or subjectively - faked injuries should be stamped out... but, how?
- I get the impression that for the Boks - it's not actually in order to get a breather - but to get the sideline staff on-field, passing coaching messages
- Perhaps the levels of fitness have dropped because of this, rather than the reverse cause-effect?
- And perhaps - it would be interesting to see if this behaviour continued with neutral medics? (I know, I know... never going to happen, but... thought experiment)
- Otherwise - yeah - it becomes very difficult to implement a fix.
- 'Neutral'/venue-supplied medics? Unworkable, and I don't see any team agreeing to this.
- Strict time limits on the injury stoppages? Cries of "player safety"
- Strict time limits on injury stoppages, but mitigated with freer reign to use the bench to replace players while they're tended to? Will be gamed by teams wanting to use the bench like NFL.
- Have a neutral medic attend the team's medics every time - and a) judge that the communications are all injury-related; and b) if possible, that the injury is genuine? That's the best fix I can think of in just 5 minutes of considering it - but... is overly complicated, introduces MORE complexity/rules, and pretty much introduces a "medical referee" member to the reffing team, flying around the world to attend internationals... which is ludicrous. Isn't it?
Referee: Nigel Owens
Assistant Referee 1: Wayne Barnes
Assistant Referee 2: Jonathan Kaplan
TMO: Ben Skeen
Medical Match Offical: Gregory House M.D.I can recall the Boks absolutely taking the piss with "injury replacements" later in the 1996 series. Subs would no doubt have become inevitable but shamelessly flaunting the rules in that manner probably didn't help.
Interesting that the guy in constant need of medical attention is the fattest fůcker on the field.
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I have no problem with the way the Boks play, and do not want to see all teams trying to play exactly the same game plan.
This game was a great contrast in style, and it wasn't crap because of the Boks, it was crap because we just continued to drop the bloody ball leading to stoppage after stoppage which played into their hands. We just have to be a damn sight more accurate.
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@booboo said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@tim said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
A lot of scrum penalties against us when we are going marginally forward, this year. What's the story?
Set piece rather poor tonight.
Ref seemed to see our props after they'd been folded in by theirs.
Suspect ref may be sitting in some uncomfortable reviews this week.
My issue with ref (possibly already mentioned. I haven’t read through thread) was that he was compliant toward the Bok way of playing - every stoppage had him asking them to hurry up but he never enforced it. That’s Ok if he also allows us to play our style. He never made a quick mark for a penalty, blew up the advantage quickly without another infringement or even had a word about negative tactics throwing the ball away.
Every team just wants the chance to play their game. He allowed the boks theirs but not us.
When TJ called him out about them slowing the game at a penalty he even said “they aren’t slowing things down, I am”
That’s just plainly unequal reffing. -
@chimoaus if prior to set piece and a prop or hooker it doesn't make it as simple
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Not sure about the subs, but actual realistic points. Unlike NZH all around 6 and 7
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@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
I have no problem with the way the Boks play, and do not want to see all teams trying to play exactly the same game plan.
This game was a great contrast in style, and it wasn't crap because of the Boks, it was crap because we just continued to drop the bloody ball leading to stoppage after stoppage which played into their hands. We just have to be a damn sight more accurate.
I have no problem with them playing that way because it makes them much more beatable. Shit we beat them yesterday and could barely string 3 phases together. They can be insanely good when they play proper rugby and the shit they can do can be downright scary at times. If they want to play within themselves and deliver this dross then so be it.
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@machpants biggest mystery is how Bridge got 4, probably about 3 more than i would have given him .
Great to see Blackadder rate so high, thought he was one of our better forwards.
If i had seen these ratings before knowing the score, i would have thought the worst …will take this result every day of the week and twice on Sunday ..
And besides its 36 wins to the Boks, 4 x draws ,and 60 wins to the good guys , thats a decent win rate . -
@machpants said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
Not sure about the subs, but actual realistic points. Unlike NZH all around 6 and 7
Yeah that was pretty spot on except for Jordan. He did some good things but farked up several times. Not Bridge bad but pretty farking close to it.
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@steven-harris said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@machpants biggest mystery is how Bridge got 4, probably about 3 more than i would have given him .
Great to see Blackadder rate so high, thought he was one of our better forwards.
If i had seen these ratings before knowing the score, i would have thought the worst …will take this result every day of the week and twice on Sunday ..
And besides its 36 wins to the Boks, 4 x draws ,and 60 wins to the good guys , thats a decent win rate .The Boks had more wins prior to their isolation didn’t they ? Fair to say the ABs have done a bit better in th pro era.
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@machpants said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
Not sure about the subs, but actual realistic points. Unlike NZH all around 6 and 7
LOL at those rankings. Rieko the same as Bridge?
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This was from an article about the 100th test and rivalry between the teams.
Up until 1981, the All Blacks had won just 15 of 37 (40.54 per cent), but post-apartheid, the difference is stark. The men in black have triumphed in 44 of 62 (70.97 per cent) since the teams reconvened in 1992.
