Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.What are you looking for here?
I can point to players who, were we to make it possible for them to 'return' to play for the Abs, perhaps would turn out (I don't think Piutau would either) but if your point is that they have to come back to NZ, then I don't think we'd get any of them unless we paid them loooooots. I think we are talking about different things.
Ok is there any player out there who could shore up a gap we have, who is possibly better than what we have in that position...
Luatua at 6
Vito another option at 6/8
Maori Jesus at 12 (Ngatai btw)
Laumape at 12 also another optionta I forgot about Ngatai.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.What are you looking for here?
I can point to players who, were we to make it possible for them to 'return' to play for the Abs, perhaps would turn out (I don't think Piutau would either) but if your point is that they have to come back to NZ, then I don't think we'd get any of them unless we paid them loooooots. I think we are talking about different things.
Would Piutau qualify for England selection on residency time by now?
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@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I don't buy into this, "we don't have the players" or "X is shite and Y is only good in SR" type comments. Without doubt, these are the best players we have at the moment (except the Northland ginger and a Ta$man center...in my opinion). They dominate the SR and/or have dominated the international scene for quite a while. You don't suddenly become shite overnight!
And we all on this board basically agreed that these were our best players until it all turned to custard!
It is obvious to me the problem. It is the stale, easy-to-predict approach we take into the games. This approach is also in a bizarre way self-destructing. The game has moved on but the NZ game has not. It is that simple. Foster I believe is not the person to lead us from the glut but if he hasn't seen the writing on the wall yet he never will. However, if he is still the coach next year, I will be hoping he can climb this mountain (which is in part his own making) and change the blueprint to give the ABs a chance in 2023.All good points.
It's true, we have nowhere near the talent we had in 2015 or the years preceding. We still have some talent though, and I would hazard a guess that many international coaches would absolutely love to have some of our loosies and backs in their squads.
But, we don't have a team good enough now to just show up, play at speed, move the ball around bit and win. And this is why coaching, selection and game plans matter. We were played off the park for 60 minutes last night and 80 minutes the week before. But we actually had chances to win both matches. A better coached and selected team would have won both matches when presented with those opportunities. Hell, a better coached and selected team would not have been solely reliant on those opportunities to win!
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@tewaio In 2004 Henry came in and said "we need a revolution in how we play, like after the 68 Lions tour". We changed our forward play and everything else. Since 2015, Hansen and his descendants have been so arrogant about playing like we own the ball and don't have to adjust. It's infuriating.
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It's also working with the SR coaches to get the experience in a position, identify deficiencies and work on them. The AB coach can only do so much and it's a joint effort. It seems to have worked with Akira - he's a way better player and that may have come about from Foster & McDonald working together.
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@nevorian said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nevorian said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Things do seem to have built nicely at super level in the last couple of years (despite interrupted comp)
Built nicely by what measure? By playing themselves who all play nearly the same style?
That’s why I said ‘seemed to have built’.
The Super comp has been successful in building a false sense of well being
That was the benefit of playing the Saffa sides, the Aussie sides and the mix of others, it exposes NZ players and coaches to different styles and game plans.
It has held us in pretty good stead for quite a few years, but two years of basically playing local derbies and then playing the Aussies a thousand times, it has taken in my view taken a toll on our development
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@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
The scary thing is there has been no improvement in performance over the last 2 years.
Goes back further than 2 year - 4 at least.
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@act-crusader said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nevorian said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nevorian said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Things do seem to have built nicely at super level in the last couple of years (despite interrupted comp)
Built nicely by what measure? By playing themselves who all play nearly the same style?
That’s why I said ‘seemed to have built’.
The Super comp has been successful in building a false sense of well being
That was the benefit of playing the Saffa sides, the Aussie sides and the mix of others, it exposes NZ players and coaches to different styles and game plans.
It has held us in pretty good stead for quite a few years, but two years of basically playing local derbies and then playing the Aussies a thousand times, it has taken in my view taken a toll on our development
So without those different styles, where do the ABs get the experience from to be able to develop the players? Are the Junior ABs making a comeback?
Or will there be more onus on the SR coaches to develop their own playing styles so that the players can be challenged by the latest trends domestically?
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@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Who gets sacked first, Solskjær or Foster?
FYI Solskjær has just been given the sack. Praying they will pull the lever on the Muppet too.
And Man U have had 6 coaches in the last 7 years , including a messiah in Mourinho.
If sacking coaches was the easy answer to everything, Man U would have won everything in sight since 2014.
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@victor-meldrew
Not sacking underperforming coaches certainly isn't the answer either. -
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Not sacking underperforming coaches certainly isn't the answer either.Glad you agree sacking coaches isn't a quick fix.
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@victor-meldrew
Not a quick fix but a necessary one. Ole & Foz = jobs for the boys, no track record to back it up, wheels fell off, sacked and should be sacked. -
This post is deleted!
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@victor-meldrew Razor has cleaned up in the SR over a long period of time.
Obviously clear game plans, good man management and eye for detail.
You heard the oft repeated phrase 'Razor hasnt got international coaching experience'. This is rubbish.
Well now we've got mediocre results, losing to teams like never before, and the management have untold international experience. -
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Not a quick fix but a necessary one. Ole & Foz = jobs for the boys, no track record to back it up, wheels fell off, sacked and should be sacked.And like Man U, we say that about the next coach (like Mourhino, with a great track record), and the one after that, and the one after that?
How many years of coach blamings and sackings do you think we need before we start asking if there's underlying problems to be addressed?
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Not a quick fix but a necessary one. Ole & Foz = jobs for the boys, no track record to back it up, wheels fell off, sacked and should be sacked.And like Man U, we say that about the next coach (like Mourhino, with a great track record), and the one after that, and the one after that?
How many years of coach blamings and sackings do you think we need before we start asking if there's underlying problems to be addressed?
How is this situation like Man U? Foster has been in the AB set up for a decade.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Not a quick fix but a necessary one. Ole & Foz = jobs for the boys, no track record to back it up, wheels fell off, sacked and should be sacked.And like Man U, we say that about the next coach (like Mourhino, with a great track record), and the one after that, and the one after that?
How many years of coach blamings and sackings do you think we need before we start asking if there's underlying problems to be addressed?
Like the Taco advert, it doesn't have to be an either/or.
And the former seems more immediate and more possible. -
I say it again, Foster and Ole are both caretakers at best. Zero credentials to prove they can do it at the top level, direct connection to past success but in a very different capacity, and opposition teams are/were praying they stay in for as long as possible.
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@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew Razor has cleaned up in the SR over a long period of time.
Obviously clear game plans, good man management and eye for detail.
You heard the oft repeated phrase 'hasnt got international coaching experience'. This is rubbish.
Well now we've got mediocre results, losing to teams like never before, and the management have untold international experience.So what do we do if and/or when when Razor, like Mourhino with his great track record, doesn't turn out to be a messiah?
If Razor's win % isn't better than Foster's after 2 years, do we think we should sack him as well?
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Not a quick fix but a necessary one. Ole & Foz = jobs for the boys, no track record to back it up, wheels fell off, sacked and should be sacked.And like Man U, we say that about the next coach (like Mourhino, with a great track record), and the one after that, and the one after that?
How many years of coach blamings and sackings do you think we need before we start asking if there's underlying problems to be addressed?
You make good points, but one thing I will say is that, because of the top-down nature of NZ rugby, the AB coach can often have a big say in the development at the lower levels of the game. Is it any coincidence that post-2004, we had a pipeline of good quality front rowers after GH had identified that as a work on? Or how after 2009, we had a generation of wingers and full backs who were all excellent under the high ball? It's because of the weaknesses in those areas identified by GH at the top level that coaches at all levels below that sought to develop the next generation that was strong in those areas.
