Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2021:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2021:
tv3 just said assistants have not been resigned yer
In the NFL, the first strike for a HC is to force new assistants on him. Its time
i would have thought he would have been keen to move on them. i dont think hes geeting value out of them. hanson did
Maybe. But he chose them so maybe he is happy with his team!
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@mn5 said in All Blacks 2021:
Chris Rattue: All Blacks review of Foster appointment now needed
Opinion: Foster may turn things around, but decision to appoint him was clearly wrong.
Can someone give me their credit card details ? I can’t seem to read this article but I bet it’s awesome.
It won't be it by Rattue, the man who was never going to support the All Blacks again when Robbie Deans missed out on coaching job!
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
Fozzie needs his control clipped. Appointing assistants and empowering them to fix aspects of the team might help. We are in desperate straights right now. JJ and Brown will not be available until after the RWC. Razor would have to put his HC aspirations on hold. Who else is there close by who might be able to help fix things? Gatland or Schmidt are close and theoretically available to at least try to steady the ship
I can't see HC's from the SR franchises giving up those jobs to align with Foster.
Especially after this NH tour.
They may see it as a poison chalice.Gatland must have history with Fozz? He is not a HC. Schmidt is on self imposed hiatus due to his son(?). If I was Razor I wouldn't want to either. I would love him JJ and Tony to get their heads together and form a cartel for 2024 though
My dream team too, though not sure if egos will work together and Tony Brown has turned down Razor last time when he wanted him as part of his team.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
Fozzie needs his control clipped. Appointing assistants and empowering them to fix aspects of the team might help. We are in desperate straights right now. JJ and Brown will not be available until after the RWC. Razor would have to put his HC aspirations on hold. Who else is there close by who might be able to help fix things? Gatland or Schmidt are close and theoretically available to at least try to steady the ship
I can't see HC's from the SR franchises giving up those jobs to align with Foster.
Especially after this NH tour.
They may see it as a poison chalice.Gatland must have history with Fozz? He is not a HC. Schmidt is on self imposed hiatus due to his son(?). If I was Razor I wouldn't want to either. I would love him JJ and Tony to get their heads together and form a cartel for 2024 though
My dream team too, though not sure if egos will work together and Tony Brown has turned down Razor last time when he wanted him as part of his team.
3 down to earth blokes,I reckon they could get together and do the Job.
Razor will not hold grudges he is not that sort of bloke.
He is happy to have a chat if you run into him. -
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
It's also fair to say that Smith and Hansen are not muppets, and would not carry idiots in that environment for any length of time, let alone 9 years. He has a pedigree, he has excellent coaches who clearly rated him.
It's often the case that the Deputy in an organisation can be exceptional and absolutely essential to success - but absolutely stink as the leader
I just don't, didn't and feel the appointment process and then extension is an example of terrible governance.
The poor performance we are seeing from this current lot isn't just down to Foster. You sense there are much deeper problems in both the NZRFU and rugby at the higher levels.
I disagree, except that theinnate conservatism off NZR to stick with foster means it's NZR problem. In addition the way they left the coach decision so late meant potentials took guaranteed jobs elsewhere. Also NZR bring unable to admit they're wrong, that's high level.
But foster is just Hansen light, and Hansen was find out from 17 on, and nothing has changed. It's not a NZ deep and dark problem, the players showed that by almost winning against Ireland despite the f coach and out of date game plan. A change of coaching team now would be enough for the ABs to hit the RWC with a good chance of winning. But foster cannot change or learn, so we're fucked until there is a change.
I think there are serious problems in NZ Rugby. It's around player development, succession planning for key positions, retaining good coaching expertise and ensuring continuity in AB management without developing staleness (which we've seen since 2016/7).
Yes, we almost won in Dublin but when under pressure, experienced players screwed up as we've seen in too many games since 2017, or arguably 2016, by making stupid errors and losing discipline. That's hardly all down to Foster - though there are some who suggest he's personally responsible for all the AB ills since he joined the cartel, as though he's some evil genius.
I worry that just simply changing the coach will only paper over the cracks for a short period. Sure, you'll get an improvement straight away due to the change (Hawthorn effect) but there's no guarantee that will last at Test level.
You are blinded by your Love for Foster,
How do we know if we don’t change , All we know it what we have now which is poor.
By your reckoning Foster should have the job forever no matter what his record of success is,because you are scared of change.
In case in doesn’t work.That's a ridiculous comment to make, as Machpants said if you look at our rugby being played even at super level, the skill level of our players in general has seemingly dropped in last few years. We have won many tests just by using sublime skills etc over the years, and we don't seem to have quite that about our players at moment. And that not saying Foster should be coach etc, just need to look at how our teams have played below test level, remember a few years back when almost any NZ team could launch an attack down the blindside with only 5 mtere to work with and still beat defence with a pass?
Also we have to look , we all cutting our wrists with how bad things are, tell me a test team in Tier 1 who has had less losses than ABs this year. Hell Wallabies just finished autumn series without a win for 43 years!!!Boks have dropped 5 teats this year, France 5 etc etc.
I not saying we don't have problems but I still think there no quick fix, and not sure they bad as we think!Could it also be that our best super rugby coaches get plum jobs overseas?
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What a fucking shit show.
No clue against the rush defence, it appears the only tactic to combat it is to kick the ball away at every opportunity. Add in the piss weak defence, fucking shit show!
Things aren’t going to get better while Foster is in charge, he simply has to go.
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@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
Fozzie needs his control clipped. Appointing assistants and empowering them to fix aspects of the team might help. We are in desperate straights right now. JJ and Brown will not be available until after the RWC. Razor would have to put his HC aspirations on hold. Who else is there close by who might be able to help fix things? Gatland or Schmidt are close and theoretically available to at least try to steady the ship
I can't see HC's from the SR franchises giving up those jobs to align with Foster.
Especially after this NH tour.
They may see it as a poison chalice.Gatland must have history with Fozz? He is not a HC. Schmidt is on self imposed hiatus due to his son(?). If I was Razor I wouldn't want to either. I would love him JJ and Tony to get their heads together and form a cartel for 2024 though
My dream team too, though not sure if egos will work together and Tony Brown has turned down Razor last time when he wanted him as part of his team.
3 down to earth blokes,I reckon they could get together and do the Job.
Razor will not hold grudges he is not that sort of bloke.
He is happy to have a chat if you run into him.Especially how they lost out last time, I hope they are smart enough to realise they will be stronger together than apart
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@arhs said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I think we need to look for a big burly number 6 and a partner for ALB in midfield most of all. Could be a big opportunity in 2022 for Tom Robinson and Samepeni Finau. Can only play 2 of Cane Paps and Ardie in same trio and need a big busy unit to complement them. Blackadder Jacobson and Akira all similar to me and add value but I think we might find better if we want to dominate.
How would RTS go in midfield and how well does Goodhue come back? Tupaea has limited tactical vision at top level currently and Havili is more a stopgap. Rieko is a far better winger.
The next wave of props, like Williams and Norris might be 2 or 3 years away and same for 10s.Perfect. 2 years away is RWC 2023. Timing could not be better.
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@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@arhs said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I think we need to look for a big burly number 6 and a partner for ALB in midfield most of all. Could be a big opportunity in 2022 for Tom Robinson and Samepeni Finau. Can only play 2 of Cane Paps and Ardie in same trio and need a big busy unit to complement them. Blackadder Jacobson and Akira all similar to me and add value but I think we might find better if we want to dominate.
How would RTS go in midfield and how well does Goodhue come back? Tupaea has limited tactical vision at top level currently and Havili is more a stopgap. Rieko is a far better winger.
The next wave of props, like Williams and Norris might be 2 or 3 years away and same for 10s.Perfect. 2 years away is RWC 2023. Timing could not be better.
You look at that 1995 team and that could be the truth, except we didn't win.
Generally speaking (in fact, always speaking looking at past winners), WC winning teams have set combinations where everyone knows their role.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@arhs said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I think we need to look for a big burly number 6 and a partner for ALB in midfield most of all. Could be a big opportunity in 2022 for Tom Robinson and Samepeni Finau. Can only play 2 of Cane Paps and Ardie in same trio and need a big busy unit to complement them. Blackadder Jacobson and Akira all similar to me and add value but I think we might find better if we want to dominate.
How would RTS go in midfield and how well does Goodhue come back? Tupaea has limited tactical vision at top level currently and Havili is more a stopgap. Rieko is a far better winger.
The next wave of props, like Williams and Norris might be 2 or 3 years away and same for 10s.Perfect. 2 years away is RWC 2023. Timing could not be better.
You look at that 1995 team and that could be the truth, except we didn't win.
Generally speaking (in fact, always speaking looking at past winners), WC winning teams have set combinations where everyone knows their role.
I was being tongue in cheek. But the props were the biggest weakness this season.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
, Foster will come even more under the spotlight.
The problems run way deeper than Foster, I reckon.
The likes of Rennie, Joseph etc, who would be coaching SR teams and developing players, are now coaching the opposition. That's a heck of lot of coaching expertise, which feeds into the national team, now lost to NZ
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@steven-harris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
who has Foster developed into a world class player …?.
Papalii and Blackadder come to mind , but they have really only got their opportunities because of injury.Samisoni to me would be the only player that might fit this category - Jordan potentially the other.
Papalii may get there in time but he needs more exposure to physical sides like Boks, England & France.
Blackadder has a high work rate but not enough impact to be world class. The problems at 6 remain.
I agree. I was also thinking today that despite many (including me) originally thinking we had good depth and ability in the loose forwards, I still to this day don't know who is best in each position and which combination works best together.
I think Ardie and Akira don't work well together at 8 and 6 (and probably at 7 and 6), Cane and Sotutu basically can only start because they are specialist, Ethan has the best workrate and can really cover the field but is not very effective, Ardie can be swamped at 8 but look great against softer forwards, Luke J can tackle hard but seems to go missing and it is not clear to me whether he is better at 6 or 8, while Akira can mentally switch off but can also do great things and move or stop large bodies but is lazy at the ruck.
Then there is Shannon, who to me is behind the pack but may be the top 6 as seen by the coaches. Dalton has arguably played the best but is he the best 7 or in the top group of 6s?
And we don't seem to have a clear 8, Hoskins has done well at cameos but doesn't seem favoured....
And which combos? Have they played the Auckland trio together? Would a looser but athletic player at 6 or 8 be best matched with Cane? Who is the best at tackling, lineouts, turnovers? And who can only start and is not suitable off the bench?
The strange thing is we can field 7 or more loosies but I still don't know the preferred players or combo.
Imagine this (given they should combine well):
6 A Ioane
7 Papilii
8 Sotutu
bench: Savea or Blackadder (not good 7 cover but can take 6 and Ioane move to 8 if required)
OR (as the above team may be dynamic but not as hardworking apart from Paps):
6 Blackadder
7 Cane (or Savea)
8 Jacobson
bench: Papilii (or Savea, but former doesn't cover 8?)Seems to me, if we agree Savea is better at 7 than 8 for top forward-oriented sides, he is best off the bench given his speed, or there is no place for Cane (who is best starting rather than bench).
I'd also argue that Frizell isn't very dynamic off the bench and is not clearly better at 6 than Jacobson or A. Ioane.
I do wonder if Papilii may be better or as good at 7 as Savea or Cane (posters here may argue allround for Savea then Paps then Cane or for tackling: Cane Paps then Savea, then again Savea is arguably the most dynamic and versatile). Ok, I go back to my suggestion Savea off the bench, and I ditch Frizell...
6 Jacobson or Ioane (some may prefer Blackadder)
7 Paps or Cane
8 Jacobson or Sotutu
bench: SaveaI'm a bit closer, I'd prefer Cane or Papilii at 7, Sotutu (myself) at 8, and hmm Ioane for 40-60 minutes at 6 (to keep him fresh). But then I can't cover 6 with Savea off the bench. I guess if Ioane Papilii Jacobson I could play Savea there but do I have enough ferocious ruck movers? (Something Blackadder can do, well at least energetically).
I'm kind of stumped here. Suggestions? -
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
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The big mistake with all of this is the timing of the appointment of the AB coach up to 2023.
Should have happened after the NH tour. Particularly with Covid happening.
What with this and the SL deal fiasco I have no faith in NZR at all.
Where's Razor -
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
The big mistake with all of this is the timing of the appointment of the AB coach up to 2023.
Should have happened after the NH tour. Particularly with Covid happening.
What with this and the SL deal fiasco I have no faith in NZR at all.
Where's RazorI wonder if Fozz has a performance clause? Probably not hard set, the NZRFU I am sure will be loathe to fire the guy they just gave a contract extension to
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@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
The big mistake with all of this is the timing of the appointment of the AB coach up to 2023.
Should have happened after the NH tour. Particularly with Covid happening.
What with this and the SL deal fiasco I have no faith in NZR at all.
Where's RazorThe funny thing about that (this should probably be in the other thread) is that it sounds like the NZRU was somehow forced into getting him signed (they said something about clarity for the coaching team). Why they would need that, I don't know, as all of the assistants are quite easily replaceable, and the HC is very few people's first choice.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
This is a combination of bad coaching, low period of talent and nz domestic style not preparing them for proper test rugby.
I don't buy this low period talent thing.
Ignoring McCaw and Carter for a moment (who were special from the start), other legends from that vintage had their ups and downs. Nonu burst onto the scene, then was dropped to go work on his game. Conrad Smith was deemed to be too slight of frame. Mealamu couldn't throw. Kaino was a brilliant athlete but was inconsistent and would go missing in tight games.
It took time for them to become the players they did. There are players with similar talents now. It requires clear coaching. Which is where things don't seem to be great.
I think the talent pool is where it was in the early 2000's and there's poss. more gaps in positions than then, and this will take a while to fix. As you say, it took a good 5 years for Nonu to become a reliable Test 12 and he came in for more stick on here than Bridge or DH.
Clear coaching definitely, but also better and more co-ordinated management of players at senior levels.
I think the biggest issue is that a guy like Nonu wouldn't stick around in 2022, so he'd be like a (not at same class but first name I can think of) Moala who is tearing it up in Europe and could be a weapon for an AB team.
For me, the biggest issue for the ABs is recognizing the absolute talents and keeping them here in NZ, and working them through to being good /great ABs (e.g., from 2004 Kaino to 2008 Kaino, or 2008 Messam to 2012 Messam) while winning at 80% +, which is not an easy task.
We might be able to get by with 'character' Crusaders up front, but we need more talent and power in the backs, and even those Sader-based forward packs were boosted by Kaino's and Messams, and Coles' and Retallicks.
I liked Moala but from memory he was getting injured just as he appeared on the AB horizon. But that does make me wonder are there any still good overseas players who may want to return for the RWC?
I imagine that if we had spent the money on them, we could have had Luatua, who is the obvious one here as he would walk into the 6 jersey. Some others could be Maori Jesus and TKB, perhaps Vito? Piutau I assume wouldn't come home even if we asked.
I'll have forgotten someone obvious.
Luatua is only 30? I imagine he is well set up there, plus was he upset about Hansen's selections or something? I can't quite remember.
Sorry, who is Maori Jesus again?
Piutau, I doubt it. Paid too well.
Had a vague idea Vito was retiring.
