All Blacks 2021
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwimurph Jesus what a shit show. I guess Fozzie thought what's good for the goose and decided to air his opinion publicly too. But probably a pretty poor option when you've just selected that guy in your team. Fucken hell.
Was a terrible decision by Foster. No winners are ever going to come out of that. Best you get is throwing a senior all black under the bus.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwimurph Jesus what a shit show. I guess Fozzie thought what's good for the goose and decided to air his opinion publicly too. But probably a pretty poor option when you've just selected that guy in your team. Fucken hell.
Was a terrible decision by Foster. No winners are ever going to come out of that. Best you get is throwing a senior all black under the bus.
i have a funny feeling that there is more to this story.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwimurph Jesus what a shit show. I guess Fozzie thought what's good for the goose and decided to air his opinion publicly too. But probably a pretty poor option when you've just selected that guy in your team. Fucken hell.
Was a terrible decision by Foster. No winners are ever going to come out of that. Best you get is throwing a senior all black under the bus.
Molehill, meet mountain
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwimurph Jesus what a shit show. I guess Fozzie thought what's good for the goose and decided to air his opinion publicly too. But probably a pretty poor option when you've just selected that guy in your team. Fucken hell.
Was a terrible decision by Foster. No winners are ever going to come out of that. Best you get is throwing a senior all black under the bus.
Molehill, meet mountain
Yeah. TJP is contracted now so it's not like he's going to run away. He's also not such an important player that if he gets the pip and can't work with Foster it's a big loss.
If Foster goes I'm not sure if he would be in Razor's mix. -
It’s really hard to gauge where we are at against the opposition we have faced over the last 2 weeks. But I guess most countries are in a very similar position in that regard.
The forwards have been the biggest issue for 3-4 years now and we seem to be in gradual decline there still, even though we have publicly acknowledged this is the area that we are focussing on to turn around and bring physicality back to our pack.
I haven’t seen any real evidence of this and I do wonder what would happen if we meet South Africa on a day when their pack is on fire.
It has got me wondering about the direction of All Black rugby and New Zealand rugby overall. Specifically, how does New Zealand rugby strategise for the development of the professional game, the style of play and also the type of player we are producing for international rugby?
I always assumed this direction was done through the All Blacks mgmt and coaching but it seems like we are out of synch with the way the rugby world is going in a number of areas.
Firstly, the forwards we produce for the All Blacks for a long time now are much leaner than their counterparts in the NH and SA. We all know we don’t produce the same amount of big men as these sides traditionally but we seem to be continuing down the leaner, mobile type of players even though rugby has changed - it’s slower, with more stoppages and it becomes harder to fatigue teams as we once used to be able to do.
This approach was found out against a fired up England in the RWC semi final. It was an embarrassing loss. One glaring area was the work of England’s tight 5 compared to ours. Set piece as well as in the loose.
Secondly, we have never solved the rush defence problem that first presented itself against The Lions. Other teams have managed to score tries against those defences but it is still our kryptonite. The dual playmaker was a desperate attempt by Hansen in my view as he realised he couldn’t win the World Cup after the Irish loss in 2018. Ironically our best performance came in the qtr final against Ireland. But, by then, it was evident that getting up for 3 big games in a row were beyond that All Black group.
Thirdly, defence. Why have we not employed the same type of rush defence that we have so much trouble with? I get it is perfect against NZ and other teams don’t try to play like we do but surely if we find it so difficult why are we persisting with other defensive structures that do not provide the necessary solidity or turnover options. We might understand how to attack it better if we used the rush defences our opponents use against us.
I actually can’t recall the last piece of innovation that Come out of NZ rugby that had the rest of the world trying to catch up. Interesting how no one has adopted the dual playmaker from RWC2019.
Then I wondered whether it’s because of our set up? Hansen’s last gig as a head coach was 2003 before taking the reins in 2012. Foster’s last gig as a head coach was 2010.
Is being an asst coaches for so long in an All Blacks environment really the best preparation for leading the All Blacks? A side always under pressure to be the best side in the world?
It seems very insular in its thinking to me that we have coaches wrapped up in a largely All Black winning bubble, for a long period of time, and then expect them to keep ahead of the rest of the world. Hansen ran out of ideas (and motivation?) after the Lions series and the loss of some all time great All Blacks after 2015. To expect Foster to be the man to bring the All Blacks back to the summit of world rugby is probably asking far too much of him.
What’s the answer? Is it time to ditch the continuity? Do we need a coach with more recent head coach experience, do we need to change the way we condition players, particularly forwards? Do the All Blacks/NZ rugby need to learn more from NH rugby to improve/change our approach? Have we fallen behind other countries/clubs in innovation?
The answer to all of these questions seem to be a resounding ‘yes’
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@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:
Firstly, the forwards we produce for the All Blacks for a long time now are much leaner than their counterparts in the NH and SA. We all know we don’t produce the same amount of big men as these sides traditionally but we seem to be continuing down the leaner, mobile type of players even though rugby has changed - it’s slower, with more stoppages and it becomes harder to fatigue teams as we once used to be able to do.
great comment fella, some good things to think about. in order
firstly - we have always picked lighter, ball playing forwards rather than power forwards. It's how we have beaten SA for a long time- but at the moment, our props in particular are not ball players. There aren't many locks in world rugby that could (Brodie) sell a massive dummy inside and then gallop down the wing to score a try. Going back to '05, it was the passing in the tight forwards that made a big differnce to that side.
More recently, at 2019 RWC against SA, we got beaten up in the forwards, but had 5 minutes of magic (Reece!) and scored two critical tries. In 2015 semi against SA it was similar -w e got beaten up front, but did enough to stretch them and score enough points ... and our defence was super solid.
So, it's not a new tactic, but going the power route isn't necessarily the answer - more just getting better forwards!
Secondly, we have never solved the rush defence problem that first presented itself against The Lions.
Re-watch 2017 Lions 1 and see how we went; we went very well, with slashing diagonal runs from behind the ruck. There's space there, if you're good enough to exploit it. Arguably we should have won that series 3-0, but for a SBW brain fart and a number of AB injuries and tits for hands, culminating in allowing Poite to French us.
Thirdly, defence. Why have we not employed the same type of rush defence that we have so much trouble with?
good question - hopefully part of a wider plan rather than just 'this is what we do'.
Great post, hope it sparks some good debate
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@dagrubster good post.
I do wonder though if there is much innovation left in the pro-game. Analysis and sports science now means that differences and ideas are fairly quickly countered.
The one point of difference we sometimes hold is skills and vision to play at pace. As you point out the current game management negates many of those opportunities. Less players at a tackle on the ground (or bound properly) means that there is way less opportunity to switch from defence to attack in a blink and run against a defence with gaps to exploit.
I think we have conceded the point on being ahead of the game and are simply trying to play to our strengths of speed in action and thought.
My biggest concern is that we constantly run the risk of being out muscled but then rectify it the next week. In a RWC you don't get a 'next week'. That is the biggest fix we need. Being able to play that hard forward game as soon as we need it on field, not after a lengthy de-brief. -
Thanks mate, appreciate your kind words.
I know we haven’t produced those types of forwards for some time. Rugby has changed a lot and at the moment the power forward around the world, seem to be in stark contrast to the forwards we produce. Of course, if we don’t have them in great supply, then we don’t have them but maybe our approach is a little old fashioned towards this?
It is right to acknowledge that we don’t seem to be producing the players over the last 4-5 years quick enough to replace some of our greats. And that leads me to wonder what type of forwards are we actually trying to produce for test match rugby?
You mention 2015 aga8nst the boks. It took our best ever RWC team to just squeak past the boks, who lost t9 Japan a few weeks earlier. I have thought for a long time that Tight knockout rugby is
Tailor made for SA and doesn’t suit All Black rugby at all, apart from our greats sides. -
You will be surprised about innovation. Innovation can come from every part of a rugby group and may only result in tiny gains but add it up and it can be the difference. The America’s cup is a good example of that.
I agree about being outmuscled and then rectifying it next time around.
2 games/opponents stand out for me. First was against Australia in 2019. Record defeat and then won 38-0 a week later. It felt we had to be totally embarrassed to produce a response.
Second, was the year before aga8nst the boks. They won in Wellington after we gifted them points and generally won all the stats.
The Abs talked about a big response in the return match in SA. However, we won something like 12 rucks in the first half of that match. It was pitiful. We did eventually win but that win had alarm bells ringing loudly about our ability to respond.
As I mentioned, 3 big games in a row seemed to be beyond that AB side. Great against Ireland in the qtr final - where they felt they had someth8ng to prove. Absolute gash a week later against England
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@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:
Thanks mate, appreciate your kind words.
I know we haven’t produced those types of forwards for some time. Rugby has changed a lot and at the moment the power forward around the world, seem to be in stark contrast to the forwards we produce. Of course, if we don’t have them in great supply, then we don’t have them but maybe our approach is a little old fashioned towards this?
It is right to acknowledge that we don’t seem to be producing the players over the last 4-5 years quick enough to replace some of our greats. And that leads me too what forwards are we actually trying to produce for test match rugby?
You mention 2015 aga8nst the boks. It took our best ever RWC team to just squeak past the boks, who lost t9 Japan a few weeks earlier. I have thought for a long time that Tight knockout rugby is
Tailor made for SA and doesn’t suit All Black rugby at all, apart from our greats sides.Bulking is not Rocket science….it’s BRO science !!!!
Just get the forwards watching this, easy.
But my concern is the backs too, how many powerhouses are there who can blast through tackles like Nonu/J Savea ? Caleb Clarke needs to come back ASAP.
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@mn5 said in All Blacks 2021:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:
Thanks mate, appreciate your kind words.
I know we haven’t produced those types of forwards for some time. Rugby has changed a lot and at the moment the power forward around the world, seem to be in stark contrast to the forwards we produce. Of course, if we don’t have them in great supply, then we don’t have them but maybe our approach is a little old fashioned towards this?
It is right to acknowledge that we don’t seem to be producing the players over the last 4-5 years quick enough to replace some of our greats. And that leads me too what forwards are we actually trying to produce for test match rugby?
You mention 2015 aga8nst the boks. It took our best ever RWC team to just squeak past the boks, who lost t9 Japan a few weeks earlier. I have thought for a long time that Tight knockout rugby is
Tailor made for SA and doesn’t suit All Black rugby at all, apart from our greats sides.Bulking is not Rocket science….it’s BRO science !!!!
Just get the forwards watching this, easy.
But my concern is the backs too, how many powerhouses are there who can blast through tackles like Nonu/J Savea ? Caleb Clarke needs to come back ASAP.
There is still a few. Fossie just refuses to pick them
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@crucial I disagree, when TJ is on form he's easily the second best halfback in the country. He also offers a point of difference being a bigger halfback than the top three options currently.
On the other hand I think they shouldn't have selected TJ until he showed form for Wellington in the NPC. I'm not one for giving a player their jersey back so freely when they decided to chase the $$ in Japan, no matter who they are.
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@dagrubster front paged that one
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@canes4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial I disagree, when TJ is on form he's easily the second best halfback in the country. He also offers a point of difference being a bigger halfback than the top three options currently.
On the other hand I think they shouldn't have selected TJ until he showed form for Wellington in the NPC. I'm not one for giving a player their jersey back so freely when they decided to chase the $$ in Japan, no matter who they are.
Hasn't been in form since the world cup.
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@canes4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial I disagree, when TJ is on form he's easily the second best halfback in the country. He also offers a point of difference being a bigger halfback than the top three options currently.
On the other hand I think they shouldn't have selected TJ until he showed form for Wellington in the NPC. I'm not one for giving a player their jersey back so freely when they decided to chase the $$ in Japan, no matter who they are.
I think that’s the point though. TJ wasn’t playing that well when he left and he’s come back looking like an aids victim.
If he’s still the second best in the country he needs to show it -
@crucial exactly, I don't care who the player is, an All Black jersey to me needs to be earned whether you've played 1 test or 100. He's been away from NZ and to me he needs to show good form before he's selected again. I said the same thing with Beaudy and Brodie but unfortunately we just don't have enough world-class players in those areas to ease them back in.
@Kirwan for sure but I think he can get back to his best if he doesn't clutter his game. Will see what happens I guess.
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@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2021:
Then I wondered whether it’s because of our set up? Hansen’s last gig as a head coach was 2003 before taking the reins in 2012. Foster’s last gig as a head coach was 2010.
Is being an asst coaches for so long in an All Blacks environment really the best preparation for leading the All Blacks?
It seems very insular in its thinking to me that we have coaches wrapped up in a largely All Black winning bubble, for a long period of time, and then expect them to keep ahead of the rest of the world.Great post, I actually had this thought recently, to succeed in nearly any discipline requires practice and experience doing the thing you need to improve.
I do wonder how you can be the best coach if you only coach a handful of games each year. What coaching skills do they do for the rest of the year?
I would be curious to know how many games Tony Brown has coached in the last 2 years compared to Foster and if this has any impact on your ability to be a good coach.
In saying that Hansen was part of the AB setup for a long time and had amazing success.
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@canes4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial I disagree, when TJ is on form he's easily the second best halfback in the country. He also offers a point of difference being a bigger halfback than the top three options currently.
Foster's comments about TJP on the news last night were interesting, and a fair criticism of him. That is, they wanted to see an improvement in the speed he gets to the breakdown and his passing. We're used to Smith's service and when TJP took the field it was like the hand-break was on.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks 2021:
I would be curious to know how many games Tony Brown has coached in the last 2 years compared to Foster and if this has any impact on your ability to be a good coach.
ABs will play 15 games this year, plus have time in camp outside that. They are effectively another team...
