All Blacks 2021
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@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke youre not wrong but you haven't address why we couldn't do that, even of a solid if not dominant scrum this year the ball was struggling to get past midfield against the rush
Reckon we might be stuffing around at the back of the scrum too much as we should be able to make more use of those type of situations because the opposition forwards are committed to the scrum, making it harder to run across & fan out across the field.
Defence still cant move forward from 5m back until the halfback has lifted the ball.
Problem is that what you are suggesting is simple is far from it. To get the ball wide fast backlines need to stand deep otherwise the centres are flatfooted after two passes. That in turn means that you need to move forward before passing to create a 'whip' to the wing. All of this plays into the hands of the defence who can drift or make options risky.
The problem as discussed is the defences being trained hard to rush added to the refs allowing them an early jump.
It does make it easier to get the ball wide from a scrum rather than trying to run the ball wide against a full flat defence... don't always have to try & get the ball wide anyway from a scrum, depends on the situation, grubbers in behind them is a great option, whether it's an angled kick for the winger etc, it has to be accurate & well weighted though, so if you don't get the ball back you at least apply a ton of pressure which could result in an opposition player getting isolated & winning penalty from it.
This current coaching staff tend to be stuffing up the thought process in decision making by our playmakers, the players have to take some blame too.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do. -
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing**. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious**. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.sorry, sometimes you have to really spell things out for some of us that wore the low numbers
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@nzbloke part of it is we are just too predictable, so any defence that is patient and disiplined is going to be able to defend us, bar a moment of brilliance from us, which seems what we are expecting to happen.
Not sure grubbers are that great, if the line is disiplined enough, is not really that much of a gap to push through...that said, if we do get the odd one through, with the odd chip, the odd line break, the odd hit up, varying our game more forcing opposition to make decisions.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke part of it is we are just too predictable, so any defence that is patient and disiplined is going to be able to defend us, bar a moment of brilliance from us, which seems what we are expecting to happen.
Not sure grubbers are that great, if the line is disiplined enough, is not really that much of a gap to push through...that said, if we do get the odd one through, with the odd chip, the odd line break, the odd hit up, varying our game more forcing opposition to make decisions.
we bet our whole game plan on it! We definitely dont look like we have any variety, and im not sure thats just on the players to decide to change the gameplan, i think the coach should have plans A-D lined up depending on what presented.
Even at club level we have very different options depending on where we are on the field, combo's of 5m-15m from touch and 22, 10 or half way etc all have different options and the on top of that the players can overrule depending on whats infront of them
the AB's last year just looked like every move was "break the line and score"...no matter where on the field, and if that didn't work they'd just try again
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke part of it is we are just too predictable, so any defence that is patient and disiplined is going to be able to defend us, bar a moment of brilliance from us, which seems what we are expecting to happen.
Not sure grubbers are that great, if the line is disiplined enough, is not really that much of a gap to push through...that said, if we do get the odd one through, with the odd chip, the odd line break, the odd hit up, varying our game more forcing opposition to make decisions.
Agreed, you need to vary your game, otherwise you're too easy to read.
There's always going to be decent gaps to grubber through, the key is to wait for the right time to place the ball through a good gap, some players tend to lack patience & rush it so end up kicking it directly into an opposition player.
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff. -
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff.How do you think you learn that "composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you"? Good development coaching for sure but experience in playing that way and being given a team structure and strategy that supports you.
With Carter we got a near perfect 10 by a perfect storm. Inate skill along with an environment for endless practice of the 'art' of being a game controlling 10. Combine that with being in one of the few areas that encouraged that playing style and it all worked out brilliantly. At the top level it would have been criminal to ignore what he had so teams and tactics moulded around him rather than the other way around.
I simply don't see that in BB or RM. Both are instinct players that try to utilise what is around them but don't play a thinking long strategy game with the ability to adjust.
I'm not saying the coaches are not culpable just that they also have to work with what they have. -
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff.How do you think you learn that "composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you"? Good development coaching for sure but experience in playing that way and being given a team structure and strategy that supports you.
With Carter we got a near perfect 10 by a perfect storm. Inate skill along with an environment for endless practice of the 'art' of being a game controlling 10. Combine that with being in one of the few areas that encouraged that playing style and it all worked out brilliantly. At the top level it would have been criminal to ignore what he had so teams and tactics moulded around him rather than the other way around.
I simply don't see that in BB or RM. Both are instinct players that try to utilise what is around them but don't play a thinking long strategy game with the ability to adjust.
I'm not saying the coaches are not culpable just that they also have to work with what they have.Of course good development coaching, structure, strategy & experience play a huge part in the game... the more matches a 10 plays especially at international level the better he adapts to different types of pressure situations, whether that means he needs to be a bit more conservative or play more positively, depends on what's happening during the game.
We all know BB has speed to burn & is a brilliant broken play runner, that's basically why he won those Two World Player Of The Year titles, it sure as hell wasn't for guiding the ship around the park from 10 with a consistently good general kicking game, his general kicking tends to be bloody aimless... just because he's a flair player doesn't mean he doesn't have a more balance game, have seen on occasions for Canes & ABs show those qualities really well, which show it's a mindset thing for him.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff.How do you think you learn that "composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you"? Good development coaching for sure but experience in playing that way and being given a team structure and strategy that supports you.
With Carter we got a near perfect 10 by a perfect storm. Inate skill along with an environment for endless practice of the 'art' of being a game controlling 10. Combine that with being in one of the few areas that encouraged that playing style and it all worked out brilliantly. At the top level it would have been criminal to ignore what he had so teams and tactics moulded around him rather than the other way around.
I simply don't see that in BB or RM. Both are instinct players that try to utilise what is around them but don't play a thinking long strategy game with the ability to adjust.
I'm not saying the coaches are not culpable just that they also have to work with what they have.Of course good development coaching, structure, strategy & experience play a huge part in the game... the more matches a 10 plays especially at international level the better he adapts to different types of pressure situations, whether that means he needs to be a bit more conservative or play more positively, depends on what's happening during the game.
We all know BB has speed to burn & is a brilliant broken play runner, that's basically why he won those Two World Player Of The Year titles, it sure as hell wasn't for guiding the ship around the park from 10 with a consistently good general kicking game, his general kicking tends to be bloody aimless... just because he's a flair player doesn't mean he doesn't have a more balance game, have seen on occasions for Canes & ABs show those qualities really well, which show it's a mindset thing for him.
We'll agree to disagree then
I don't believe that our development of 10s encourages them to learn to control a game. Junior and school rugby should be the place where that is taught then developed further as they grow and go up levels. Instead 10s in school rugby and encouraged to be passers first. -
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff.How do you think you learn that "composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you"? Good development coaching for sure but experience in playing that way and being given a team structure and strategy that supports you.
With Carter we got a near perfect 10 by a perfect storm. Inate skill along with an environment for endless practice of the 'art' of being a game controlling 10. Combine that with being in one of the few areas that encouraged that playing style and it all worked out brilliantly. At the top level it would have been criminal to ignore what he had so teams and tactics moulded around him rather than the other way around.
I simply don't see that in BB or RM. Both are instinct players that try to utilise what is around them but don't play a thinking long strategy game with the ability to adjust.
I'm not saying the coaches are not culpable just that they also have to work with what they have.Of course good development coaching, structure, strategy & experience play a huge part in the game... the more matches a 10 plays especially at international level the better he adapts to different types of pressure situations, whether that means he needs to be a bit more conservative or play more positively, depends on what's happening during the game.
We all know BB has speed to burn & is a brilliant broken play runner, that's basically why he won those Two World Player Of The Year titles, it sure as hell wasn't for guiding the ship around the park from 10 with a consistently good general kicking game, his general kicking tends to be bloody aimless... just because he's a flair player doesn't mean he doesn't have a more balance game, have seen on occasions for Canes & ABs show those qualities really well, which show it's a mindset thing for him.
We'll agree to disagree then
I don't believe that our development of 10s encourages them to learn to control a game. Junior and school rugby should be the place where that is taught then developed further as they grow and go up levels. Instead 10s in school rugby and encouraged to be passers first.fair points... also a lot of it is on a 10 to think for himself through a match, reading when to run, pass or kick, especially in the real pressure parts of a match.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke part of it is we are just too predictable, so any defence that is patient and disiplined is going to be able to defend us, bar a moment of brilliance from us, which seems what we are expecting to happen.
Not sure grubbers are that great, if the line is disiplined enough, is not really that much of a gap to push through...that said, if we do get the odd one through, with the odd chip, the odd line break, the odd hit up, varying our game more forcing opposition to make decisions.
we bet our whole game plan on it! We definitely dont look like we have any variety, and im not sure thats just on the players to decide to change the gameplan, i think the coach should have plans A-D lined up depending on what presented.
Even at club level we have very different options depending on where we are on the field, combo's of 5m-15m from touch and 22, 10 or half way etc all have different options and the on top of that the players can overrule depending on whats infront of them
the AB's last year just looked like every move was "break the line and score"...no matter where on the field, and if that didn't work they'd just try again
The players are the ones out on the field, so it's up to them to adapt their tactics during a match... doesn't matter what type of sport it is, just read what's in front of you & use the best tactic that suits the team at the time.
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@nzbloke surely you can acknowledge players changing things up on the fly is a hell of a lot harder than having various plans that have been practiced and perfected
I didn't say they couldn't do it...but they shouldn't have too as much as they seem to be currently
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke surely you can acknowledge players changing things up on the fly is a hell of a lot harder than having various plans that have been practiced and perfected
I didn't say they couldn't do it...but they shouldn't have too as much as they seem to be currently
Play some sport and find out for yourself, loser.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke surely you can acknowledge players changing things up on the fly is a hell of a lot harder than having various plans that have been practiced and perfected
I didn't say they couldn't do it...but they shouldn't have too as much as they seem to be currently
Of course you have to be adaptable & change things on the fly, if something isn't working you have to change it, it's called reading the bloody game while you're playing it.
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@nzbloke i dont know who you're arguing with...no one is disagreeing...we're just talking about the coaches, just because we're talking about the coaches doesn't mean anyone is saying the players don't have any responsibility
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke i dont know who you're arguing with...no one is disagreeing...we're just talking about the coaches, just because we're talking about the coaches doesn't mean anyone is saying the players don't have any responsibility
I'm saying it definitely isn't much harder to change things on the fly compared to a using a game plan... & you can't be too robotic using a game plan.
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@nzbloke we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, if it was just as easy to work it out on the fly then they would probably train with a lot less intensity and save on injuries, could also save a fortune on coaches salaries
