All Blacks 2021
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
Standing a bit deeper so your centre can run onto the ball isn't going to make much diff when a flat defence comes up in a straight line, they're just going to smother the movement, against an umbrella defence you might get away with it now & again, but most defences come up in a straight line most of the time.
Modern defences don't - the centres are busy shooting up to force the attack back towards the previous ruck or to isolate defenders because to support a tackled player who is behind them is disadvantageous for the attackers.
The way to prevent this is twofold:
- Put the ball into space behind the defenders so you can regather or prevents them shooting up taking your time and space away, or
- Attack around the fringes drawing defenders in, moving forward so you can attack with momentum, width and numerical superiority.
In both instances you need a five-eighth who takes the ball forward preventing defences from drifting. Carter and Cruden did this well.
Agree, all very good points... but the forwards play a huge part if they can recycle the ball quickly, consistently getting good numbers to clean out through the phases, giving the backs more space & time, as the flat defences will have less time to set their defensive pattern.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
I think he can use his pace at 13.
He can use his deadly pace at times in the midfield, but he's not going to get many opportunities to do that as a midfielder as that's where all the heavy traffic is... as a winger he'll certainly get more opportunities to use his gas, which is the blokes strength.
It's not 2003 any more, there isn't much in the way of space out there either, teams at test level are too good at holding their width.
The thinking is the genuine pace at 13 will allow outside breaks to beat umbrella style defences and punish wingers who stay rigidly on their man.
It's not the only way to skin a cat, but I can see the merit in it.There's more space on the wings than in a very congested midfield area... we need our fastest backs in the back 3 positions.
We can't get the ball out there against a rush defence. Stand deep enough so a centre can receive and pass the ball and modern defences have already tracked to the winger. It's 2022.
Standing a bit deeper so your centre can run onto the ball isn't going to make much diff when a flat defence comes up in a straight line, they're just going to smother the movement, against an umbrella defence you might get away with it now & again, but most defences come up in a straight line most of the time.
isn;t that the issue though...you stick your fastest strike weapons on the wing, if we're not standing deeper to enable to ball time to get to them...how are we using them?
With all these flat defences reckon the backs should make the most of set piece opportunities... the loosies have to stay attached to the scrum, if you have the feed & you have a solid scrum platform to work from you have a great chance to fire the ball out wide quickly etc, trying to make the most of the back on back situations.
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@nzbloke youre not wrong but you haven't address why we couldn't do that, even of a solid if not dominant scrum this year the ball was struggling to get past midfield against the rush
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke youre not wrong but you haven't address why we couldn't do that, even of a solid if not dominant scrum this year the ball was struggling to get past midfield against the rush
Reckon we might be stuffing around at the back of the scrum too much as we should be able to make more use of those type of situations because the opposition forwards are committed to the scrum, making it harder for them to run out & fan across the field.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke youre not wrong but you haven't address why we couldn't do that, even of a solid if not dominant scrum this year the ball was struggling to get past midfield against the rush
Reckon we might be stuffing around at the back of the scrum too much as we should be able to make more use of those type of situations because the opposition forwards are committed to the scrum, making it harder to run across & fan out across the field.
Defence still cant move forward from 5m back until the halfback has lifted the ball.
Problem is that what you are suggesting is simple is far from it. To get the ball wide fast backlines need to stand deep otherwise the centres are flatfooted after two passes. That in turn means that you need to move forward before passing to create a 'whip' to the wing. All of this plays into the hands of the defence who can drift or make options risky.
The problem as discussed is the defences being trained hard to rush added to the refs allowing them an early jump.
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@crucial yeah, i think there has to be another answer other than do what we've been doing but better
I dont watch a lot of things like the six nations, how are other teams handling it? just dont try and go wide until the forward have drawn in a couple of backs? keep it tight until the backline feels they're going backwards and so comes in a bit to support the defence and then go wide fast?
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There are tactics though, that can help.
As you say, the scrum is a good place to attack from against a rush defence but you need to ignore the temptation to go wide.
If you stand flatter and have skills to put the ball behind the defence you can catch the forwards out of position as well.
Stand too deep before popping a kick and you'll find a second line of defence or extra bodies cutting down space to kick into. That's how fast defence move around these days at the top levels.
A well executed chip over the midfield defence a few times will hold the fullback in place as sweeper. Once you read their positioning you aim for gaps to create pressure and maybe a winger holds back as well. That's when the skip to the wing will get ground and keep possession. You need to spend a bit of money to make make money.
This takes skills that our tens haven't grown up with and don't find instinctive (let alone our 12s or 13s). School teams base themselves on the easy gains made by oversized midfields and expect 10s to shovel the ball on like an extra 9.
The 'professionalism' of the college game has contributed a lot to some aspects of our game but taken away the development skills of 10s IMO. How many promising pivots take a step up to higher levels and only then have to satrt learning tactical kicking from hand and the decision making that goes with that? -
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke youre not wrong but you haven't address why we couldn't do that, even of a solid if not dominant scrum this year the ball was struggling to get past midfield against the rush
Reckon we might be stuffing around at the back of the scrum too much as we should be able to make more use of those type of situations because the opposition forwards are committed to the scrum, making it harder to run across & fan out across the field.
Defence still cant move forward from 5m back until the halfback has lifted the ball.
Problem is that what you are suggesting is simple is far from it. To get the ball wide fast backlines need to stand deep otherwise the centres are flatfooted after two passes. That in turn means that you need to move forward before passing to create a 'whip' to the wing. All of this plays into the hands of the defence who can drift or make options risky.
The problem as discussed is the defences being trained hard to rush added to the refs allowing them an early jump.
It does make it easier to get the ball wide from a scrum rather than trying to run the ball wide against a full flat defence... don't always have to try & get the ball wide anyway from a scrum, depends on the situation, grubbers in behind them is a great option, whether it's an angled kick for the winger etc, it has to be accurate & well weighted though, so if you don't get the ball back you at least apply a ton of pressure which could result in an opposition player getting isolated & winning penalty from it.
This current coaching staff tend to be stuffing up the thought process in decision making by our playmakers, the players have to take some blame too.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do. -
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing**. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious**. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.sorry, sometimes you have to really spell things out for some of us that wore the low numbers
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@nzbloke part of it is we are just too predictable, so any defence that is patient and disiplined is going to be able to defend us, bar a moment of brilliance from us, which seems what we are expecting to happen.
Not sure grubbers are that great, if the line is disiplined enough, is not really that much of a gap to push through...that said, if we do get the odd one through, with the odd chip, the odd line break, the odd hit up, varying our game more forcing opposition to make decisions.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke part of it is we are just too predictable, so any defence that is patient and disiplined is going to be able to defend us, bar a moment of brilliance from us, which seems what we are expecting to happen.
Not sure grubbers are that great, if the line is disiplined enough, is not really that much of a gap to push through...that said, if we do get the odd one through, with the odd chip, the odd line break, the odd hit up, varying our game more forcing opposition to make decisions.
we bet our whole game plan on it! We definitely dont look like we have any variety, and im not sure thats just on the players to decide to change the gameplan, i think the coach should have plans A-D lined up depending on what presented.
Even at club level we have very different options depending on where we are on the field, combo's of 5m-15m from touch and 22, 10 or half way etc all have different options and the on top of that the players can overrule depending on whats infront of them
the AB's last year just looked like every move was "break the line and score"...no matter where on the field, and if that didn't work they'd just try again
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke part of it is we are just too predictable, so any defence that is patient and disiplined is going to be able to defend us, bar a moment of brilliance from us, which seems what we are expecting to happen.
Not sure grubbers are that great, if the line is disiplined enough, is not really that much of a gap to push through...that said, if we do get the odd one through, with the odd chip, the odd line break, the odd hit up, varying our game more forcing opposition to make decisions.
Agreed, you need to vary your game, otherwise you're too easy to read.
There's always going to be decent gaps to grubber through, the key is to wait for the right time to place the ball through a good gap, some players tend to lack patience & rush it so end up kicking it directly into an opposition player.
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff. -
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff.How do you think you learn that "composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you"? Good development coaching for sure but experience in playing that way and being given a team structure and strategy that supports you.
With Carter we got a near perfect 10 by a perfect storm. Inate skill along with an environment for endless practice of the 'art' of being a game controlling 10. Combine that with being in one of the few areas that encouraged that playing style and it all worked out brilliantly. At the top level it would have been criminal to ignore what he had so teams and tactics moulded around him rather than the other way around.
I simply don't see that in BB or RM. Both are instinct players that try to utilise what is around them but don't play a thinking long strategy game with the ability to adjust.
I'm not saying the coaches are not culpable just that they also have to work with what they have. -
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff.How do you think you learn that "composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you"? Good development coaching for sure but experience in playing that way and being given a team structure and strategy that supports you.
With Carter we got a near perfect 10 by a perfect storm. Inate skill along with an environment for endless practice of the 'art' of being a game controlling 10. Combine that with being in one of the few areas that encouraged that playing style and it all worked out brilliantly. At the top level it would have been criminal to ignore what he had so teams and tactics moulded around him rather than the other way around.
I simply don't see that in BB or RM. Both are instinct players that try to utilise what is around them but don't play a thinking long strategy game with the ability to adjust.
I'm not saying the coaches are not culpable just that they also have to work with what they have.Of course good development coaching, structure, strategy & experience play a huge part in the game... the more matches a 10 plays especially at international level the better he adapts to different types of pressure situations, whether that means he needs to be a bit more conservative or play more positively, depends on what's happening during the game.
We all know BB has speed to burn & is a brilliant broken play runner, that's basically why he won those Two World Player Of The Year titles, it sure as hell wasn't for guiding the ship around the park from 10 with a consistently good general kicking game, his general kicking tends to be bloody aimless... just because he's a flair player doesn't mean he doesn't have a more balance game, have seen on occasions for Canes & ABs show those qualities really well, which show it's a mindset thing for him.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff.How do you think you learn that "composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you"? Good development coaching for sure but experience in playing that way and being given a team structure and strategy that supports you.
With Carter we got a near perfect 10 by a perfect storm. Inate skill along with an environment for endless practice of the 'art' of being a game controlling 10. Combine that with being in one of the few areas that encouraged that playing style and it all worked out brilliantly. At the top level it would have been criminal to ignore what he had so teams and tactics moulded around him rather than the other way around.
I simply don't see that in BB or RM. Both are instinct players that try to utilise what is around them but don't play a thinking long strategy game with the ability to adjust.
I'm not saying the coaches are not culpable just that they also have to work with what they have.Of course good development coaching, structure, strategy & experience play a huge part in the game... the more matches a 10 plays especially at international level the better he adapts to different types of pressure situations, whether that means he needs to be a bit more conservative or play more positively, depends on what's happening during the game.
We all know BB has speed to burn & is a brilliant broken play runner, that's basically why he won those Two World Player Of The Year titles, it sure as hell wasn't for guiding the ship around the park from 10 with a consistently good general kicking game, his general kicking tends to be bloody aimless... just because he's a flair player doesn't mean he doesn't have a more balance game, have seen on occasions for Canes & ABs show those qualities really well, which show it's a mindset thing for him.
We'll agree to disagree then
I don't believe that our development of 10s encourages them to learn to control a game. Junior and school rugby should be the place where that is taught then developed further as they grow and go up levels. Instead 10s in school rugby and encouraged to be passers first.
