All Blacks 2021
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff. -
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff.How do you think you learn that "composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you"? Good development coaching for sure but experience in playing that way and being given a team structure and strategy that supports you.
With Carter we got a near perfect 10 by a perfect storm. Inate skill along with an environment for endless practice of the 'art' of being a game controlling 10. Combine that with being in one of the few areas that encouraged that playing style and it all worked out brilliantly. At the top level it would have been criminal to ignore what he had so teams and tactics moulded around him rather than the other way around.
I simply don't see that in BB or RM. Both are instinct players that try to utilise what is around them but don't play a thinking long strategy game with the ability to adjust.
I'm not saying the coaches are not culpable just that they also have to work with what they have. -
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff.How do you think you learn that "composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you"? Good development coaching for sure but experience in playing that way and being given a team structure and strategy that supports you.
With Carter we got a near perfect 10 by a perfect storm. Inate skill along with an environment for endless practice of the 'art' of being a game controlling 10. Combine that with being in one of the few areas that encouraged that playing style and it all worked out brilliantly. At the top level it would have been criminal to ignore what he had so teams and tactics moulded around him rather than the other way around.
I simply don't see that in BB or RM. Both are instinct players that try to utilise what is around them but don't play a thinking long strategy game with the ability to adjust.
I'm not saying the coaches are not culpable just that they also have to work with what they have.Of course good development coaching, structure, strategy & experience play a huge part in the game... the more matches a 10 plays especially at international level the better he adapts to different types of pressure situations, whether that means he needs to be a bit more conservative or play more positively, depends on what's happening during the game.
We all know BB has speed to burn & is a brilliant broken play runner, that's basically why he won those Two World Player Of The Year titles, it sure as hell wasn't for guiding the ship around the park from 10 with a consistently good general kicking game, his general kicking tends to be bloody aimless... just because he's a flair player doesn't mean he doesn't have a more balance game, have seen on occasions for Canes & ABs show those qualities really well, which show it's a mindset thing for him.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff.How do you think you learn that "composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you"? Good development coaching for sure but experience in playing that way and being given a team structure and strategy that supports you.
With Carter we got a near perfect 10 by a perfect storm. Inate skill along with an environment for endless practice of the 'art' of being a game controlling 10. Combine that with being in one of the few areas that encouraged that playing style and it all worked out brilliantly. At the top level it would have been criminal to ignore what he had so teams and tactics moulded around him rather than the other way around.
I simply don't see that in BB or RM. Both are instinct players that try to utilise what is around them but don't play a thinking long strategy game with the ability to adjust.
I'm not saying the coaches are not culpable just that they also have to work with what they have.Of course good development coaching, structure, strategy & experience play a huge part in the game... the more matches a 10 plays especially at international level the better he adapts to different types of pressure situations, whether that means he needs to be a bit more conservative or play more positively, depends on what's happening during the game.
We all know BB has speed to burn & is a brilliant broken play runner, that's basically why he won those Two World Player Of The Year titles, it sure as hell wasn't for guiding the ship around the park from 10 with a consistently good general kicking game, his general kicking tends to be bloody aimless... just because he's a flair player doesn't mean he doesn't have a more balance game, have seen on occasions for Canes & ABs show those qualities really well, which show it's a mindset thing for him.
We'll agree to disagree then
I don't believe that our development of 10s encourages them to learn to control a game. Junior and school rugby should be the place where that is taught then developed further as they grow and go up levels. Instead 10s in school rugby and encouraged to be passers first. -
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial im also weary that a chip and potentially giving the ball away is the go too move, there has to be possession option stoo
Absolutely. The key is to keep them guessing. I hadn't explained that part as I thought it obvious. You want the back three especially to be in two minds and having to anticipate. That way you can take advantage when they get it wrong.
t is the basics of breaking a defence down. Something I don't believe we are doing at the moment as the current trend is all about manipulation within a move rather than the long game.@NZbloke I don't think they are stuffing up the thought process of the 10s. Our 10s simply haven't grown up playing the long game. Carter was the last one to play like that (although retrospective credit to some that had to go to the NH for these skills to become apparent).
This is why you'll see many of our rated 10s go north and fail to impress. The attrition style works better up there as that is what the rest of the team are used to and geared towards.
Take a player like DMac. His instinct is to always try and spot a weakness to exploit. It gets him into trouble as the rest of the team isn't always on the same page and it comes across as risky. This is also why a stable team can reap rewards as a group of players start to learn the instincts of the others and can read what they are going to do.Lets be honest the coaches are part of the problem of stuffing up our 10's... only have to look at how the whole team is playing at the moment.
Having some of our players playing in the UK isn't going to make much diff to their quality at 10... doesn't matter what country a 1st-five comes from or plays in, it always comes down to composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you, as you say Carter did that brilliantly, it's just about good common sense stuff.How do you think you learn that "composure, good decision making, also executing your skills accurately, basically reading what's in front of you"? Good development coaching for sure but experience in playing that way and being given a team structure and strategy that supports you.
With Carter we got a near perfect 10 by a perfect storm. Inate skill along with an environment for endless practice of the 'art' of being a game controlling 10. Combine that with being in one of the few areas that encouraged that playing style and it all worked out brilliantly. At the top level it would have been criminal to ignore what he had so teams and tactics moulded around him rather than the other way around.
I simply don't see that in BB or RM. Both are instinct players that try to utilise what is around them but don't play a thinking long strategy game with the ability to adjust.
I'm not saying the coaches are not culpable just that they also have to work with what they have.Of course good development coaching, structure, strategy & experience play a huge part in the game... the more matches a 10 plays especially at international level the better he adapts to different types of pressure situations, whether that means he needs to be a bit more conservative or play more positively, depends on what's happening during the game.
We all know BB has speed to burn & is a brilliant broken play runner, that's basically why he won those Two World Player Of The Year titles, it sure as hell wasn't for guiding the ship around the park from 10 with a consistently good general kicking game, his general kicking tends to be bloody aimless... just because he's a flair player doesn't mean he doesn't have a more balance game, have seen on occasions for Canes & ABs show those qualities really well, which show it's a mindset thing for him.
We'll agree to disagree then
I don't believe that our development of 10s encourages them to learn to control a game. Junior and school rugby should be the place where that is taught then developed further as they grow and go up levels. Instead 10s in school rugby and encouraged to be passers first.fair points... also a lot of it is on a 10 to think for himself through a match, reading when to run, pass or kick, especially in the real pressure parts of a match.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke part of it is we are just too predictable, so any defence that is patient and disiplined is going to be able to defend us, bar a moment of brilliance from us, which seems what we are expecting to happen.
Not sure grubbers are that great, if the line is disiplined enough, is not really that much of a gap to push through...that said, if we do get the odd one through, with the odd chip, the odd line break, the odd hit up, varying our game more forcing opposition to make decisions.
we bet our whole game plan on it! We definitely dont look like we have any variety, and im not sure thats just on the players to decide to change the gameplan, i think the coach should have plans A-D lined up depending on what presented.
Even at club level we have very different options depending on where we are on the field, combo's of 5m-15m from touch and 22, 10 or half way etc all have different options and the on top of that the players can overrule depending on whats infront of them
the AB's last year just looked like every move was "break the line and score"...no matter where on the field, and if that didn't work they'd just try again
The players are the ones out on the field, so it's up to them to adapt their tactics during a match... doesn't matter what type of sport it is, just read what's in front of you & use the best tactic that suits the team at the time.
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@nzbloke surely you can acknowledge players changing things up on the fly is a hell of a lot harder than having various plans that have been practiced and perfected
I didn't say they couldn't do it...but they shouldn't have too as much as they seem to be currently
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke surely you can acknowledge players changing things up on the fly is a hell of a lot harder than having various plans that have been practiced and perfected
I didn't say they couldn't do it...but they shouldn't have too as much as they seem to be currently
Play some sport and find out for yourself, loser.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke surely you can acknowledge players changing things up on the fly is a hell of a lot harder than having various plans that have been practiced and perfected
I didn't say they couldn't do it...but they shouldn't have too as much as they seem to be currently
Of course you have to be adaptable & change things on the fly, if something isn't working you have to change it, it's called reading the bloody game while you're playing it.
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@nzbloke i dont know who you're arguing with...no one is disagreeing...we're just talking about the coaches, just because we're talking about the coaches doesn't mean anyone is saying the players don't have any responsibility
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke i dont know who you're arguing with...no one is disagreeing...we're just talking about the coaches, just because we're talking about the coaches doesn't mean anyone is saying the players don't have any responsibility
I'm saying it definitely isn't much harder to change things on the fly compared to a using a game plan... & you can't be too robotic using a game plan.
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@nzbloke we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, if it was just as easy to work it out on the fly then they would probably train with a lot less intensity and save on injuries, could also save a fortune on coaches salaries
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, if it was just as easy to work it out on the fly then they would probably train with a lot less intensity and save on injuries, could also save a fortune on coaches salaries
I think you may both be arguing extremes here. Both right and both wrong.
@NZbloke is 'incorrect' because you have to have the whole team ob the same page and that comes from traing scenarios and patterns along with getting used to each other. The coaches need to set the framework for the players to play within.
@Kiwiwomble is 'incorrect' because while the coaches set the framework, it is up to the leaders and the team driver (hopefully the 10) to read what is going on and tweak within the framework.
The coaches need to create and train for a wide enough variety of plays that the 10 can control 'on the fly' AND the players need to think about what they are doing that isn't working. It's not one or the other.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, if it was just as easy to work it out on the fly then they would probably train with a lot less intensity and save on injuries, could also save a fortune on coaches salaries
You've got to be kidding me ? - you just play what's in front of you, how that involve training with less intensity, save on injuries etc... not saying don't have game plans in place, but you don't have to stick to them like glue, just be flexible about them
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@crucial come on, i was arguing an extreme to counter an extreme, ive never seriously said the players shouldn't play whats in front of them...said as much like two posts ago.....im just saying that almost everyone else takes that as given...no one says otherwise...and so most people are talking about whats not happening which is the coaches coming up with new ideas
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, if it was just as easy to work it out on the fly then they would probably train with a lot less intensity and save on injuries, could also save a fortune on coaches salaries
You've got to be kidding me ? - you just play what's in front of you, how that involve training with less intensity, save on injuries etc... not saying don't have game plans in place, but you don't have to stick to them like glue, just be flexible about them
and im not saying you do!! never have! im just talking about something different! something ADDITIONAL to the players playing heads up rugby which is the coaches doing more
I...AM....NOT...DISAGREEING...THE PLAYERS....SHOULD...PLAY...WHATS....IN...FRONT...OF...THEM
is that more clear? saying the coaches can do more to counter things like the rush defence does NOT mean i think the players should only do what the coaches say...jesus christ is that so hard to understand
I only disagree at making up a new game plan on the fly is just as easy as spending hours during the week at training practicing and perfecting things, we often talk about teams that have been rushed together not having time to practice...we say that for a reason surely
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, if it was just as easy to work it out on the fly then they would probably train with a lot less intensity and save on injuries, could also save a fortune on coaches salaries
I think you may both be arguing extremes here. Both right and both wrong.
@NZbloke is 'incorrect' because you have to have the whole team ob the same page and that comes from traing scenarios and patterns along with getting used to each other. The coaches need to set the framework for the players to play within.
@Kiwiwomble is 'incorrect' because while the coaches set the framework, it is up to the leaders and the team driver (hopefully the 10) to read what is going on and tweak within the framework.
The coaches need to create and train for a wide enough variety of plays that the 10 can control 'on the fly' AND the players need to think about what they are doing that isn't working. It's not one or the other.
I realize it's about a bit of both, but my main concern at the moment is our playermakers are not reading situations well during the game... also our forwards are not doing the hard work through the phases, so we are also getting done at the breakdown, Ireland & France did those things very well, which is basically why they beat us.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, if it was just as easy to work it out on the fly then they would probably train with a lot less intensity and save on injuries, could also save a fortune on coaches salaries
I think you may both be arguing extremes here. Both right and both wrong.
@NZbloke is 'incorrect' because you have to have the whole team ob the same page and that comes from traing scenarios and patterns along with getting used to each other. The coaches need to set the framework for the players to play within.
@Kiwiwomble is 'incorrect' because while the coaches set the framework, it is up to the leaders and the team driver (hopefully the 10) to read what is going on and tweak within the framework.
The coaches need to create and train for a wide enough variety of plays that the 10 can control 'on the fly' AND the players need to think about what they are doing that isn't working. It's not one or the other.
I realize it's about a bit of both, but my main concern at the moment is our playermakers are not reading situations well during the game... also our forwards are not doing the hard work through the phases, so we are also getting done at the breakdown, Ireland & France did those things very well, which is basically why they beat us.
and thats fair enough if thats your concern....but you come and have a go at other people for not agreeing...when really they're just talking about something different, its a general thread, if you want to only talk about that then start a specific thread
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, if it was just as easy to work it out on the fly then they would probably train with a lot less intensity and save on injuries, could also save a fortune on coaches salaries
I think you may both be arguing extremes here. Both right and both wrong.
@NZbloke is 'incorrect' because you have to have the whole team ob the same page and that comes from traing scenarios and patterns along with getting used to each other. The coaches need to set the framework for the players to play within.
@Kiwiwomble is 'incorrect' because while the coaches set the framework, it is up to the leaders and the team driver (hopefully the 10) to read what is going on and tweak within the framework.
The coaches need to create and train for a wide enough variety of plays that the 10 can control 'on the fly' AND the players need to think about what they are doing that isn't working. It's not one or the other.
I realize it's about a bit of both, but my main concern at the moment is our playermakers are not reading situations well during the game... also our forwards are not doing the hard work through the phases, so we are also getting done at the breakdown, Ireland & France did those things very well, which is basically why they beat us.
Some of the problem here could be that you are late to the party. We have discussed all of these points months ago and may be ahead of you in what we are talking about.
Have a read back through the thread
