The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread
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@Machpants this sums it up perfectly
If you can tackle the All Blacks, you will beat them. If you don’t, they’ll put 40 points on you.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel Doesn't that just depend on what you mean by attacking 10? BB and RM can certainly run at space. Not sure they create all that much, though. Although, RM did it brilliantly in Sydney.
Hodge isn't a 10 for shit. JOC seems reasonable at picking the right play and opening space for his outside man, which is what i consider a good attacking 10 to be, but he's still a part timer in the role.
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The thing about Brisbane (and to a lesser extent Wellington) was that for the first time in a loooong time I thought the Wallabies beat the All Blacks tactically.
As a Wallabies fan it was a real pleasure, above and beyond the win. We have made some small but significant changes to our game plan, and it stifled the ABs - the use of box kicks being a prime example. Miles away from Cheika-ball, we actually seemed to think about what we were doing.
The blueprint to beat the All Blacks has been on display for about a year now: limit broken field opportunities by kicking to touch or to a contest, and limiting unforced errors. Slow down to structured attack and you can contain them. And then it's simply about scoring enough points, of which there are a few ways to do that.
As a non-Kiwi, I do think it's very clear Foster has just continued the Hansen game plan. And that worked for a long time. But to my eyes teams started to pick that apart last year, so an overhaul was required. And yet it hasn't been delivered.
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the "passive defense" thing fucking kills me, not because i want to rush teams and bash them, but because, from my set, it seems counter-intuitive to the way we appear to want to play.
It looks for all the world like the plan is wait for a mistake or a turnover, and punish that hard.
The thing is, it's really really fucking hard to generate a turnover off a gain line loss. Unless you are getting "dominant tackles" behind the gain line, you basically need to wait until deep in to the phase count, when they run out of numbers (see 2/3rds of David Pocock's turnovers) and then it's normally a holding on penalty in your own half.
So yes, the passive defense keeps the score low enough that we can win the game with our attack plan. But at the same time it is my very real belief that the same defensive plan actually reduces our ability to score points.
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@mariner4life rugby is about dominating your opposition...can you do this passively?
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I do wonder if the Mitre 10 cup and SR are causing some of our issues, the players play a certain style of rugby week in and week out. This style is almost baked into a NZ Rugby Players DNA. And this has been one of our biggest assets, our attacking ability has often been without equal.
However, things have changed, individual skill and talent are no longer enough vs well organised Defensive lines. As teams become better at executing the low risk, low error defensive orientated game the AB's have started to struggle. Without turnover ball and space, we seem to starve.
It is now clear the rest of the world have the blueprint of how to beat the AB's, all you need to do is execute it like the Wallabies twice this year and the Argentinian team did on the weekend.
A good coach should have recognised our weakness against this and evolved to either match it or develop a counter. Foster clearly has not evolved and is acting surprised now the rest of the world have us figured out. The AB's will never evolve with Foster at the helm, he doesn't know any other way.
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@chimoaus said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
A good coach should have recognised our weakness against this and evolved to either match it or develop a counter. Foster clearly has not evolved and is acting surprised now the rest of the world have us figured out. The AB's will never evolve with Foster at the helm, he doesn't know any other way.
the past few years we have gone from living life in the fast lane other teams striving to catch up, sometimes they do, but we pull away again, now we are sitting in the middle lane, no matter what.
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@taniwharugby said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life rugby is about dominating your opposition...can you do this passively?
i was about to say "it's not actually, it's about scoring more points than the opposition"
but then, this current iteration of test rugby has just become a collision sport. And if we don't want to play it, then we need to find a new way of beating it. Not seeing much evidence of that at the moment.
I think back to Eden Park, and we were very direct that day, sat the Wallabies on their heels, and punished that. It's the only time i have seen it this whole international campaign.
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I guess from a glass is half full standpoint, at least we have some interesting years ahead seeing how we adapt and hopefully overcome these issues. I bet nobody thought the last Argie game would have so much riding on it. I really hope the Argies turn up again and bring the same game plan to see if our coaching staff produce a counter. I would hate for them to fall apart like the Wallabies did in Sydney which would tell us nothing.
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@barbarian said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
As a non-Kiwi, I do think it's very clear Foster has just continued the Hansen game plan. And that worked for a long time. But to my eyes teams started to pick that apart last year, so an overhaul was required. And yet it hasn't been delivered.
It's been picked apart since 17-18, the same game plan beats us "If you can tackle the All Blacks, you will beat them. If you don’t, they’ll put 40 points on you."
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@Machpants said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
"If you can tackle the All Blacks, you will beat them. If you don’t, they’ll put 40 points on you."
Yeah a bit like not getting broken on serve in tennis. You never lose.
If you don't tackle you lose every time. Aus did a few weeks ago.
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@chimoaus said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
I do wonder if the Mitre 10 cup and SR are causing some of our issues, the players play a certain style of rugby week in and week out. This style is almost baked into a NZ Rugby Players DNA. And this has been one of our biggest assets, our attacking ability has often been without equal.
However, things have changed, individual skill and talent are no longer enough vs well organised Defensive lines. As teams become better at executing the low risk, low error defensive orientated game the AB's have started to struggle. Without turnover ball and space, we seem to starve.
It is now clear the rest of the world have the blueprint of how to beat the AB's, all you need to do is execute it like the Wallabies twice this year and the Argentinian team did on the weekend.
A good coach should have recognised our weakness against this and evolved to either match it or develop a counter. Foster clearly has not evolved and is acting surprised now the rest of the world have us figured out. The AB's will never evolve with Foster at the helm, he doesn't know any other way.
i see what your saying but i actually think its due to to the loss of connection between the AB's ad the rest that has caused it
I see Otago playing with a rush defence that has worked as we'll as these guys abilities can make it work, i think the rest of NZ is working on it...but because the AB;s has become a bit of an echo chamber...theyve just tried to carry on has we have for the last decade
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@Derpus said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Rancid-Schnitzel Doesn't that just depend on what you mean by attacking 10? BB and RM can certainly run at space. Not sure they create all that much, though. Although, RM did it brilliantly in Sydney.
Hodge isn't a 10 for shit. JOC seems reasonable at picking the right play and opening space for his outside man, which is what i consider a good attacking 10 to be, but he's still a part timer in the role.
You don't watch much if any NZ rugby do you?
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@Snowy said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Machpants said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
"If you can tackle the All Blacks, you will beat them. If you don’t, they’ll put 40 points on you."
Yeah a bit like not getting broken on serve in tennis. You never lose.
If you don't tackle you lose every time. Aus did a few weeks ago.
But it's more than that, it's about limiting the time in which the ABs have built their empire - broken field play. If you are dropping the ball, or kicking poorly then the 'just tackle them' game plan falls apart, because it's practically impossible to do that (see Sydney Bledisloe).
It's why we've seen the Wallabies form the human centipede at rucks for a box kick, and it's why if that box kick is awry it's too shallow rather than too deep. Far better for the ABs to have slow ball on half way than time and space on their 22.
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@barbarian said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
But it's more than that, it's about limiting the time in which the ABs have built their empire - broken field play.
Of course it is. Bloody obvious.
Which bit of not tackling and you lose wasn't understood? That was all that I said.
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But also some rubbish ones
“He’s given us really clear focusses of what we need to get better at, it doesn’t feel like we’re bogged down and don’t have the answers.”
That is bollock cos the ABs haven’t had answers to an accurate rush defence combined with physicality since 2017 - that is what pisses me off most. They talked about this post Lions and in the run up to the RWC. Hansen, and Foster as often cos he was being groomed, said in interviews they had improvements and ideas that just need to bed in to beat that. Part of it was the two playmaker axis, necessitating moving our best ten to 15 (with DMac injured). But it hasn’t worked, doesn’t work - 3 or 4 fucking years!
Foster IS out of ideas, cos he’s still using ones that are not upto it. Having continuity was great when on a roll, but having it when the ABs have hit a brick wall tactically against certain sides/styles, is not. And all Sam’s ‘people don’t understand much rugby’ is condescending bullshit. Even the Fern’s ‘zero insight’ has predicted this for ages - and been proven right.
Sadly Foster will be here next year, unless we totally shit the bed against the Puma next match. So the next coach (Razor hopefully) will only have 2 years to pull the ABs from the brink of mediocrity - thankfully the Boks have shown it can be done with an inspirational coach and a razor focus on the the basics of rugby first. That is Razor to a tee
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New Zealand drop to third in latest rankings.
Wales drop to ninth.
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@antipodean said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
New Zealand drop to third in latest rankings.
Wales drop to ninth.
Both were top at points last year.
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@taniwharugby of course I have read the article but I have found some of the comments on here fairly distasteful after the weekend.
