Worst All Black RWC exits
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@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Hooroo said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Hooroo On paper, obviously not. The unsurprising part was the All Blacks getting out-coached again, which had already been common sight over the previous cycle. Since this had been a recent trend, it happening again wasn't surprising.
So the better team lost on the day. Okayyyyy
You're dreaming. England were the better team and showed it with a class performance. It's completely irrelevant if there are better players on the losing side.
That match was lost tactically and up-front and Hansen oversees the forwards, he went into it with the wrong tactical approach and played right into Eddie's hands. We got destroyed at the breakdown and the amount of collisions we were losing was unprecedented.
Almost like losing to the better team.
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how many of our starting pack would have started for them in 2019?
Their front rowers were better, their locks were in better form, their loosies were better...
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@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
how many of our starting pack would have started for them in 2019?
Their front rowers were better, their locks were in better form, their loosies were better...
Don't do the analysis mate! Just be one-eyed and play a blame game! It's the kiwi way!!
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@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
how many of our starting pack would have started for them in 2019?
Their front rowers were better, their locks were in better form, their loosies were better...
This was only after the fact where we put a lock up against them and changed the entire pattern of how the loosies had been playing.
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@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
how many of our starting pack would have started for them in 2019?
Their front rowers were better, their locks were in better form, their loosies were better...
This was only after the fact where we put a lock up against them and changed the entire pattern of how the loosies had been playing.
um, our #8 and skipper had been pretty ordinary for 12 months. The plan was basically to hope he had one good set of games left in him. He didn't.
SB is obvious. But the other plan had a good 7 playing as a servicable 6. Pardon me if i hope for a little more.
And what was on the bench?
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@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
how many of our starting pack would have started for them in 2019?
Their front rowers were better, their locks were in better form, their loosies were better...
This was only after the fact where we put a lock up against them and changed the entire pattern of how the loosies had been playing.
um, our #8 and skipper had been pretty ordinary for 12 months. The plan was basically to hope he had one good set of games left in him. He didn't.
SB is obvious. But the other plan had a good 7 playing as a servicable 6. Pardon me if i hope for a little more.
And what was on the bench?
I don't disagree with that, but the Cane, Read, Savea combo had at least worked out a decent pattern in the lead up games, instead we changed it. We lost the game in the first 10 minutes due to poor defence, meanwhile our best offensive defence player was sitting on that bench.
I actually have little issue with how SB played, he put in a ok shift but he wasn't what was needed at the time.
The England loosies were made to look better by our poor selectorial decisions.
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@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.
Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges
Yes he was. Which adds to my conspiracy theory that they wanted the hosts to move through. Worst officiating that I have ever witnessed.
as a group, they were appalling. And a couple of the penalties that should have been blown were right in front of the touchie as well.
We still should have found a way to win though, given the ball and territory, and forward dominance. There was a collective failing of on-field leadership, not helped by losing both our 10s. A perfect storm of absolute shit.
Agreed. While I tend to disagree with the notion that 2007 was massive choke like 1999 - in the sense that in 2007 we didn't become overwhelmed and go completely into our shells in the face of a French onslaught, but actually took a firm hold on the match after falling behind - we were pretty bloody naive to think that we could win by trying to up the jumper our way to a match-winning try or penalty in the circumstances.
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Agreed. While I tend to disagree with the notion that 2007 was massive choke like 1999 -
We went to France mid tournament
We didn't select Doug Howlett
We were weak mentally, didn't expect the French to show up. For me, they had such massive capability, they just didn't put on the park. That's a choke.
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@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
how many of our starting pack would have started for them in 2019?
Their front rowers were better, their locks were in better form, their loosies were better...
Honestly, only Retallick and Savea would make it into a combined 8 (and Retallick largely there on reputation - certainly not on 2019 form).
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
how many of our starting pack would have started for them in 2019?
Their front rowers were better, their locks were in better form, their loosies were better...
Honestly, only Retallick and Savea would make it into a combined 8 (and Retallick largely there on reputation - certainly not on 2019 form).
I would have had Taylor and Coles ahead of George, but both were average that night.
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@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Agreed. While I tend to disagree with the notion that 2007 was massive choke like 1999 -
We went to France mid tournament
We didn't select Doug Howlett
We were weak mentally, didn't expect the French to show up. For me, they had such massive capability, they just didn't put on the park. That's a choke.
Did you read my post, mate? I said it wasn't a choke like 1999. I agree that we didn't have the mental skills to win that match, but that's not because we wilted in the face of a French onslaught. We controlled territory and possession throughout the match and particularly in the second half. We thought we could win one way, when absolutely anyone without their blinkers on could see that wasn't going to happen. So, yeah, it was a choke - in the sense that we failed to read the situation properly - but it was nothing like 1999, where we simply gave up.
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@Hooroo No, it's called Hansen being an ultimately inadequate international coach, unable to adapt at all, and not even remotely close to the class of Henry or Smith.
Hansen did a lot for the All Black's culture and basically like John Hart; he was a good manager, but he was always lacking in the actual coaching department. He was always the weak-link among Ted and Henry. I still remember the All Black's line-out and forwards an absolute shambles during the 2008-2009 seasons. It prompted a re-shuffle of the coaching group before the 2010 season, Henry taking over the forwards and Smith moving to Defense. We had a staggeringly good run after that change.
Wayne Smith and Graham Henry were very technical and analytical coaches.
Steve Hansen was simply a good man-manager who had no idea about strategy, tactical side of the game, nor the technical side of coaching itself, an extremely average ineffective forwards coach during his time.
Without the tactical acumen and technical expertise of Henry and Smith, the All Blacks sustained dominance simply doesn't happen. And without those two, Hansen is just your average oldschool motivational-style provincial coach.
So Hansen, a one-dimensional coach, simple-mind, with no business coaching against an astute, tactically-sound rugby mind in Jones.
So, yeah, It's not that surprising the All Blacks lost.
Anyone who thinks England had 'the better players' is simply deluded.
"only Retallick and Savea would make it into a combined 8"
Yet the same England team conceded 32 points against SA.
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Agreed. While I tend to disagree with the notion that 2007 was massive choke like 1999 -
We went to France mid tournament
We didn't select Doug Howlett
We were weak mentally, didn't expect the French to show up. For me, they had such massive capability, they just didn't put on the park. That's a choke.
Did you read my post, mate? I said it wasn't a choke like 1999.
Yep, but to me it really was a proper choke. Different to 99 where we switched off from 24-10 up. So yes, I did read it - but thought you were arguing that the 07 wasn't a choke. They were both terrible chokes, but different.
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@Bones Hansen was the worst Wales coach in history, 33% win percentage and only managed wins over Italy, Scotland, Tonga, Canada and Romania.
In contrast, Graham Henry finished with 60% win record with Wales. Big wins over SA, England - does 'The Great Redeemer' ring a bell?
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@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior we were looking forward to the final in 1999, then forgot to come out of the sheds at halftime.
Yeah, I agree with that. But, when it seemed the French were getting on top, it seemed to be me that there was complete surrender, deer in the headlights stuff going on. At least in 2007 it seemed like they had a plan - even though it was the wrong one - and were willing to fight
