Ireland vs All Blacks (2018)
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@bovidae said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@nepia said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
If you are referring to the Irish pass that was a AR call. I'm happy to blame Barnes though.
good, pointed call:
Fall of Rome? Barnes fault.
9/11? Fark it, Barnes fault.
Donald Trump? Wayne-O, you bastard
I kind of like this game
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Even if the tactics were way off, there are serious selection questions. The selection of NMS is emblematic in my mind of the backwards nature of the current selection process. It's an unwillingness to admit that a guy doesn't become a completely different player once he puts on a black jersey.
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After the last 7 days, 2018 suddenly feels a lot like 1998, with the distinct difference being that back then we spent most of the year playing much better sides.
Obviously all observations and theories come with the massive caveat that i have absolutely no idea what plan the coaches are working to (if indeed there is one) that might affect performances, tactics, and outcomes.
However, this is a sports forum, and it's a place for us, the great unwashed, to cast our theories out as if we know all, and should be listened to.
Tactics Tim
What the fuck are our tactics? From the outside our plan looks like we spend 60 minutes trying to wear teams out, and then hammer them in the last 20. Our attack has been fucking basic all year, and suddenly looks old-school Boks-esque in that we spend a lot of time smacking in to teams, trying to bash them in to submission. And yet we don't pick personel suited to that game plan. Edge runners, tall blokes, and static props; backed up by a no power midfielder except a dude who hasn't run a crash ball in 2 years.Remember 2003 when we murdered everyone from turnover? Well there are a lot of times when it looks for all the world like that is our only go-to at the moment. Crash ball or punish bad kicks.
This presents a huge problem when the opposition kick well, and you can't generate a turnover because our excellent counter-ruck game has disappeared.
So that raises the question, have we run out of ideas, or did we just spend a year deliberately under-playing our hand?
Defense
Okay what is the go here? We are not playing rush, okay no worries. We have this strange sort of defense where we take a few quick steps then sit back. There also seems to be a point where if they get the ball outside a certain point, we back off and wait for support. We leak a lot more linebreaks and metres than i remember us ever giving up. We're not giving up scores though, because we usually still scramble as well as anyone. We also have started falling off tackles as we start looking for the ball instead of completing the tackle first, worrying about the rest later. That may be linked to the distinct lack of turnover ball mentioned above.Set Piece
Our nice point of difference. Scrum is good (creaked today, but at worst shared the honours i thought) and our lineout is in the main deadly.Players
Well now, the big question, do we have the guys int eh right spots to play the way we want? The bigger question, do the coaches have the stones to drop a big name who may not be fitting what they want? Is there a clear path in their mind for next year? And is that path realistic? or does it rely on a player "coming good" like it did in 2015?That last World Cup actually fills me with a little more confidence. A year out some dudes looked done who were very much not. And we looked like shit as late as the Group stages, but that was part of the plan (apparently).
I really just want to talk about the loose forwards at the moment. Our best 7 broke his neck, and may not make it back. Our next best 7 has been playing bloody well, but is a completely different player. Our captain and only test 8 option is going alright for the main, but is running on what look very old legs. He's slipped in to a tight role i think because he can't play the wide game any more. Who plays 6 is as undecided as any position on the field, hell we have an entire thread on it where few agree. I want to talk about balance. I spoke below about the distinct lack of speed today, and to me, this is our issue. We want to play wide, but do we have the players in these crucial spots to do it? If our first choice trio is Cane, Read, and Squire, that's not real quick. S Barrett off the bench isn't quick either. It's for that reason i can see why Fifita was stuck with for so long, he actually has the wheels to balance that trio out. He's just not good enough. Read's lack of pace actually rules out a few guys for that spot in my eyes, unless Savea is playing, and we change the way the guys operate.
I also wouldn't mind a decent fucking ball runner somewhere in the 13 forwards we pick. One guy who can repeatedly dent the line in the tough stuff. We don't have that at the moment. Our best guys are locks, and that's not ideal, too bloody tall!
In conclusion for this long rambling brain dump, this year was shit, and we have some glaring fucking holes that i can see from the cheap seats. The optimist in me says this year was a holding period to get us through to the ultimate goal next year, while not losing ranking or the Bledisloe. The other option is we have finally got stale/complacent/caught up to. It's far from doom and gloom, we pushed a very good #2 side in the world playing at home right to the wire. It's just not what we are used to.
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@kiwiinmelb I think it is clear they are trying things, but seriously, theres trying things and stubbornly continue with things that arent working.
IN doing things like they have, they have handed teams a confidence boost, while at our best we WERE nigh on untouchable, we are lacking confidence and execution to get back to that IMO.
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Oh, and one more, we are kicking a lot, but our kicks are shit. Either 10m too long, or 10m too short. We contest fuck all, just hand the ball back. Barrett, Smith especially, and DMac need to take responsibility for that, it's just not good enough. Our contested kicks used to be the weapon that got us out of our end, now they just invite endless pressure.
And what is with the mealy mid-range nothing kick offs we can't contest, or that force them back in to the corner?
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@dejo said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Pre match fern thread dominated by frivolous argument over whether Smith would have dominated in Marshall’s era and vice versa. Nothing like a loss against worlds best to get people talking about reality again.
Jesus now the fern is to blame for an AB loss for talking frivolously .
True though, we should have been talking about this loss last Wednesday
That's quite a causal effect there!!
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@booboo said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@crazy-horse said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@rancid-schnitzel that's why I pondered whether it was a conincidence. None of us will really know. We only saw Goodhue taking the ball on the run once and having enough time to pass to Ioane, and that was from a decent Mo'unga pass.
I am not a Barrett hater before anyone accuses me of being one. I am not convinced he is a world cup winning 10.
Well we know he can kick drop goals at least 😉.
But why?
Free reign to have a crack with ball in hand, always coming back for the penalty if we fucked up ... so un-All Black
Not true. I can recall a number of times that Carter attempted drop goals under a penalty advantage. He didn’t land many but what was he thinking by taking them?
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@snowy said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Looked like a 1991 past it team. Coaches and captain.
Knee jerk reaction? Maybe, but being outplayed like that means that we need to change things.
Reckon Read will get the arse leading to "Bring back Kieran" signs?
Any chance of a Shag-Tana co-coaching arrangement?
I don't like comparing to 1991. That was a cluster fuck. We ain't there yet.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Any chance of a Shag-Tana co-coaching arrangement?
I think for it to match 1991 it would need to be a Shag-Deans combo coaching.
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Greetings from SAFFA land. Look I know you guys are hurting a little but you have to say we are in for a kick ass world cup. A lot of teams on the same level or getting there. Really, for the first time, you can say that there are 4 or 5 teams in it - and maybe one or two more by that time. It's good stuff and great for the game.
Best wishes and much respect - see you guys on the pitch (and in a bar) really soon
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@mariner4life said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Oh, and one more, we are kicking a lot, but our kicks are shit. Either 10m too long, or 10m too short. We contest fuck all, just hand the ball back. Barrett, Smith especially, and DMac need to take responsibility for that, it's just not good enough. Our contested kicks used to be the weapon that got us out of our end, now they just invite endless pressure.
And what is with the mealy mid-range nothing kick offs we can't contest, or that force them back in to the corner?
This. The kicking has been woeful. There is no point putting up kicks if they can't even be contested. Ireland fucked us big time in this regard and that was even without their best no. 9.
I know this won't be popular, particularly based on his form in the latter part of the year, but I think they need to get Jordie at fullback. If, as I suspect, every team will try and bomb us into submission, then the flying giraffe will be more valuable than the mighty midget. DMac is brave, but he's simply too small to compete.
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@nepia said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Any chance of a Shag-Tana co-coaching arrangement?
I think for it to match 1991 it would need to be a Shag-Deans combo coaching.
Shag-Mitchell?
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Thoroughly enjoyed the game, Ireland the deserved victors but there were just fingertips in it for blown tries on our side. Ireland was always going to grow an extra arm in the last 10 mins at home if they were ahead with I'm sure 2013 still very fresh on some minds. I'm not as worried as many on here, we could have easily taken it and Ireland right now are a superb outfit playing at home. I don't think Barrett was anywhere near as bad as some are saying but do agree that he is lacking that support from a crash ball exponent at 12, be that sbw, laumape or nonu. I'm being continuing impressed with Goodhue's performances, just so solid for a young bloke, long ab career ahead I'm sure.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@nepia said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Any chance of a Shag-Tana co-coaching arrangement?
I think for it to match 1991 it would need to be a Shag-Deans combo coaching.
Shag-Mitchell?
The key to the 1991 combo is that they didn't like each other and Hansen and Deans really don't like each other. I guess Hansen may feel the same way about Mitchell, but he's just a loon and Hansen likes Eddie Jones and Jones and Mitchell are pals.
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@snowy said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Looked like a 1991 past it team. Coaches and captain.
Knee jerk reaction? Maybe, but being outplayed like that means that we need to change things.
Yep. Read has been slowly shifting from great to good for a couple of years now. Which is no sin, but if we want to be the best team in the world, we need a captain faster round the park and with better hands than today’s effort.
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@rembrandt said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Thoroughly enjoyed the game, Ireland the deserved victors but there were just fingertips in it for blown tries on our side. Ireland was always going to grow an extra arm in the last 10 mins at home if they were ahead with I'm sure 2013 still very fresh on some minds. I'm not as worried as many on here, we could have easily taken it and Ireland right now are a superb outfit playing at home. I don't think Barrett was anywhere near as bad as some are saying but do agree that he is lacking that support from a crash ball exponent at 12, be that sbw, laumape or nonu. I'm being continuing impressed with Goodhue's performances, just so solid for a young bloke, long ab career ahead I'm sure.
Laumape would have been perfect in a game like that. When you come up against a brick wall, it helps to have the best wrecking ball.
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An epic Test.
POM deservedly MOTM, and Ireland deserved winners.
Schmidt has coached this team brilliantly to beat the ABs.
The try was excellent.
As many have said, you can't win the match without the ball. And yet that has been the game plan for NZ for some time.
Kick away possession with accuracy, put the opposition under pressure and either
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Turn the ball over against an unassembled defence and score
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Force the opposition to kick badly back to you and regain possession in a better part of the field, and score against a fractured defence.
NZ did this all match but were unable to force the above to happen.
Ireland knew what was coming, and executed practically flawlessly all match.
There was no guile from the ABs.
Honestly it was like watching Hansen coached Wales out there. And that is not a compliment.
An aside, how id Kearney escape a yellow?
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@mikethesnow the accuracy is severely lacking, the kicks are all over the show in distance and trajectory. It's galling.
Kearney, yeah ran recklessly into the "zone" with no intention of jumping, for a kick that wasn't going to be caught without jumping. Certainly put himself in line for a card of potentially either colour - but ref's have been a lot more lax on these rulings lately.
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