NH International Rugby
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@nevorian said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
What you're saying makes perfect Rugby sense, but I don't think that's what the laws say. They say it's a knock on if you lose possession off the hand / arm, and the ball travels forward and hits another player/ the floor. Doesn’t say anything about kicking.
A kick is not counted as a knock on because you're losing possession off the boot, rather than the arm / hand. In which case, it doesn't matter if it's intended or not.
I'm not arguing whether it was a knock-on, I'm simply pointing out by the very definition of the word as defined by the game, it doesn't constitute a kick for the purposes of ruling out a knock-on.
If the knock-on determination of possession is the same as for a tackle, i.e. you can tackle someone juggling the ball after a pass because they're held to be in possession, then a player juggling the ball and losing it forward as per the law shall be judged to have knocked-on.
It seems to me the TMO either didn't believe the player had lost possession when it came off the back of his leg (unlikely) or was adjudged as per law 11.4: It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
For what little it is worth, I don't believe the try should've been awarded.
I may have missed something but I thought they ruled ok because the ball traveled backwards as he lost possession and then hit the England player which made it look as though it had gone forward
I'd say from when he first touched it to when he last touched it it had clearly travelled forward - he was running after all.
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
What you're saying makes perfect Rugby sense, but I don't think that's what the laws say. They say it's a knock on if you lose possession off the hand / arm, and the ball travels forward and hits another player/ the floor. Doesn’t say anything about kicking.
A kick is not counted as a knock on because you're losing possession off the boot, rather than the arm / hand. In which case, it doesn't matter if it's intended or not.
I'm not arguing whether it was a knock-on, I'm simply pointing out by the very definition of the word as defined by the game, it doesn't constitute a kick for the purposes of ruling out a knock-on.
If the knock-on determination of possession is the same as for a tackle, i.e. you can tackle someone juggling the ball after a pass because they're held to be in possession, then a player juggling the ball and losing it forward as per the law shall be judged to have knocked-on.
It seems to me the TMO either didn't believe the player had lost possession when it came off the back of his leg (unlikely) or was adjudged as per law 11.4: It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
For what little it is worth, I don't believe the try should've been awarded.
I agree that it doesn't constitute a kick. But I think that's irrelevant - the definition of a knock on (surprisingly) doesn't depend on whether it was a kick or not.
I refer you back to where I came into this discussion. @cgrant asked if it could be a kick and I said no. (https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/post/548911))
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@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?But almost every kick - intentional or not - goes forward from the hand and then onto the foot...?
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@antipodean
Apologies, I missed that, thought you were arguing something else -
Definitions from the 2021 laws, for anyone nerdy enough to care:
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.
(Theres more in LAW 11 about intentional knock-ons, tackles, ripping, charge downs etc. but I don't think any of that's relevant here)
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@junior said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?But almost every kick - intentional or not - goes forward from the hand and then onto the foot...?
Exactly. A further example would be if you’re defending a grubber kick and it suddenly keeps low and bangs you on the shins. Not a knock on. LZR lost it forward but it did not hit the ground or another player, it hit his leg (ok) and went backwards from there (ok).
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@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
That's interesting. So, by that definition, I couldn't throw the ball over my shoulder and then kick it back over my head with my heel, regather and then score?
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@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
Ach. Shithouse. Firstly, awful refereeing. First try was a complete shocker. Big ups for Biggar and Adams for the foresight and execution but damn that was poor from the ref
Ian McGeechan in the Telegraph thought the try bizarre and England hard done by. Interestingly, asks if Gauzere said time-on as he believed Biggar was going for a penalty kick, which begs the question: did Biggar indicate he was going for goal?
Apart from that, I thought Gauzere was OK. Pretty consistent at the breakdown and communicated well.
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@junior said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
That's interesting. So, by that definition, I couldn't throw the ball over my shoulder and then kick it back over my head with my heel, regather and then score?
That very move has been done in a lower league game in England a few years ago. It's on youtube somewhere. A feller called Alan Knuckley if I recall. Good skills and pretty funny to watch.
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@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@junior said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?But almost every kick - intentional or not - goes forward from the hand and then onto the foot...?
Exactly. A further example would be if you’re defending a grubber kick and it suddenly keeps low and bangs you on the shins. Not a knock on.
Because it didn't hit the hand or arm. Same reason a catch that completely misses the arms and bounces off the chest isn't a knock-on.
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@junior said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
That's interesting. So, by that definition, I couldn't throw the ball over my shoulder and then kick it back over my head with my heel, regather and then score?
Even if it's not officially a kick, I don't think there's any rule saying that you can't do it is there?
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@junior said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
That's interesting. So, by that definition, I couldn't throw the ball over my shoulder and then kick it back over my head with my heel, regather and then score?
Yes, there goes some tricks. I've no idea why the heel is ruled out.
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Neither of the first two Welsh tries should have stood. Dodgy refereeing but these things happen. That said England did well to get back in the game. With 18 minutes to go it was 24-24. England had the momentum.
The big story of the match was how England totally fell to pieces in the last eighteen minutes. Wales scored 16 unanswered points in that time and England failed to score at all. England never looked as effective once Ben Youngs at halfback was hooked for Dan Robson. The organisation and the discipline for England in that last 20 minutes were appalling.
I know he is a very confident man with a mouth to match his enormous ego, but serious questions need to be asked of Eddie Jones' coaching and leadership of the England squad at the moment given the players and resources he has available. Did his players and finishers really understand their roles in the last eighteen minutes there? What was said to the players at half time? What is the coach doing to sort out England's obvious penalty problems?
Arrogance can only get you so far in life. What England need is a hands-on coach who is prepared to work harder to improve his players. By all accounts, Eddie Jones has spent most of the twelve months in Japan. If he can't turn things around against France and Ireland, I can see the RFU parting ways with him.
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@junior said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
That's interesting. So, by that definition, I couldn't throw the ball over my shoulder and then kick it back over my head with my heel, regather and then score?
You thinking Tons Fili? His go to!
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
The more I rewatch both those tries (and reread the rules) the more sure I am that they're both perfectly valid.
And the more English pundits (or anyone else) complain about the ref rather than their own discipline, the happier I am.
Pretty sure you wouldn't even flinch if they were scored against Wales huh?
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
The more I rewatch both those tries (and reread the rules) the more sure I am that they're both perfectly valid.
And the more English pundits (or anyone else) complain about the ref rather than their own discipline, the happier I am.
I am happy to debate the second try. It could have gone either way. To me it's a knock on but I can see how someone who knows the laws can argue (wrongly IMHO) it was a valid try. It's one referees will have fun arguing about.
But the refereeing for the first try was absolutely appalling. As the clip from 1:03 to 1:35 makes clear, both sides had Water Carriers on the field of play. Given their role on the field of play was non-essential, the ref should have told them to move before saying time on. England didn't help themselves by being tardy and lazy, but the ref got it very, very, very wrong:
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@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
The more I rewatch both those tries (and reread the rules) the more sure I am that they're both perfectly valid.
And the more English pundits (or anyone else) complain about the ref rather than their own discipline, the happier I am.
I am happy to debate the second try. It could have gone either way. To me it's a knock on but I can see how someone who knows the laws can argue (wrongly IMHO) it was a valid try. It's one referees have fun arguing about.
But the refereeing for the first try was absolutely appalling. As the clip from 1:05 to 1:35 makes clear, both sides had Water Carriers on the field of play. Given their role on the field of play was non-essential, the ref should have told them to move before saying time on. England didn't help themselves by being tardy and lazy, but the ref got it very, very, very wrong:
Yeah, I don't think we're too far apart on this. I agree the ref made a dog's breakfast of the first try, and put England at a disadvantage. But that didn't make the try invalid - just a bit harsh on them. But the mistakes made by England were probably worse - they were slow slow slow getting into position (the ref gave them about 25 seconds) and weren't awake (not all of them - the guys defending the left were alert and already in position). Letting England take as long as they want to have a drink, let their orcs get their breath back and set up defence would put Wales at an unfair disadvantage. (Why were the water carriers even on the field?). A poorly managed situation, but a perfectly valid try.
As for the second one, I think the problem is that the laws say one thing (you can't have a knock-on if it comes off a leg), but in practice refs often give it anyway. I initially thought it was a knock-on, then i read the law in question and now I think the refs got it right.
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@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
The more I rewatch both those tries (and reread the rules) the more sure I am that they're both perfectly valid.
And the more English pundits (or anyone else) complain about the ref rather than their own discipline, the happier I am.
Pretty sure you wouldn't even flinch if they were scored against Wales huh?
Of course not. When have you ever heard a Welsh fan complain about a referee's decision?
