NH International Rugby
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
From the Laws website (below).
The ruling I have generally seen refs adopt is that if you drop it, you lose possession- and that's the knock-on. Kicking it doesn't change the 'loss of possession' action.
It's one of those nasty little bits that generally gets reffed one way, but the laws probably don't fully explain it
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
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@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
What you're saying makes perfect Rugby sense, but I don't think that's what the laws say. They say it's a knock on if you lose possession off the hand / arm, and the ball travels forward and hits another player/ the floor. Doesn’t say anything about kicking.
A kick is not counted as a knock on because you're losing possession off the boot, rather than the arm / hand. In which case, it doesn't matter if it's intended or not.
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
What you're saying makes perfect Rugby sense, but I don't think that's what the laws say. They say it's a knock on if you lose possession off the hand / arm, and the ball travels forward and hits another player/ the floor. Doesn’t say anything about kicking.
A kick is not counted as a knock on because you're losing possession off the boot, rather than the arm / hand. In which case, it doesn't matter if it's intended or not.
I'm pretty sure that "it's in the definition of what constitutes a kick" is the bit you're missing. Plus maybe the URL to confirm that is "what the laws say".
Edit: Sorry. Drunk. But what @antipodean was pointing out is, that according to the laws, he did not kick it. "what the laws say" - is that a kick has to be an intentional act. And therefore...
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
What you're saying makes perfect Rugby sense, but I don't think that's what the laws say. They say it's a knock on if you lose possession off the hand / arm, and the ball travels forward and hits another player/ the floor. Doesn’t say anything about kicking.
A kick is not counted as a knock on because you're losing possession off the boot, rather than the arm / hand. In which case, it doesn't matter if it's intended or not.
I'm not arguing whether it was a knock-on, I'm simply pointing out by the very definition of the word as defined by the game, it doesn't constitute a kick for the purposes of ruling out a knock-on.
If the knock-on determination of possession is the same as for a tackle, i.e. you can tackle someone juggling the ball after a pass because they're held to be in possession, then a player juggling the ball and losing it forward as per the law shall be judged to have knocked-on.
It seems to me the TMO either didn't believe the player had lost possession when it came off the back of his leg (unlikely) or was adjudged as per law 11.4: It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
For what little it is worth, I don't believe the try should've been awarded.
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@kruse said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
What you're saying makes perfect Rugby sense, but I don't think that's what the laws say. They say it's a knock on if you lose possession off the hand / arm, and the ball travels forward and hits another player/ the floor. Doesn’t say anything about kicking.
A kick is not counted as a knock on because you're losing possession off the boot, rather than the arm / hand. In which case, it doesn't matter if it's intended or not.
I'm pretty sure that "it's in the definition of what constitutes a kick" is the bit you're missing. Plus maybe the URL to confirm that is "what the laws say".
Edit: Sorry. Drunk. But what @antipodean was pointing out is, that according to the laws, he did not kick it. "what the laws say" - is that a kick has to be an intentional act. And therefore...
Yeah I understand, what you're saying makes sense. The thing is that the laws on knock ons don't care if it's a kick or not. This surprised me when I read them for the first time today - I assumed they would say something like "it's a knock on ... except in the case of a kick", in which case we'd need to look up the definition of a kick. But they don't, they just talk about when the player loses possession of the ball off the hand or arm etc.
Here's the link to the laws:
P19 for the definition of knock on
P22 for the definition of possession
P63 for the law about knock onsEdit: not drunk. Yet. But assuming you're in NZ then I'm a couple of hours behind, so I'll try to catch up.
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@kruse said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
What you're saying makes perfect Rugby sense, but I don't think that's what the laws say. They say it's a knock on if you lose possession off the hand / arm, and the ball travels forward and hits another player/ the floor. Doesn’t say anything about kicking.
A kick is not counted as a knock on because you're losing possession off the boot, rather than the arm / hand. In which case, it doesn't matter if it's intended or not.
I'm pretty sure that "it's in the definition of what constitutes a kick" is the bit you're missing. Plus maybe the URL to confirm that is "what the laws say".
Edit: Sorry. Drunk. But what @antipodean was pointing out is, that according to the laws, he did not kick it. "what the laws say" - is that a kick has to be an intentional act. And therefore...
Yeah I understand, what you're saying makes sense. The thing is that the laws on knock ons don't care if it's a kick or not. This surprised me when I read them for the first time today - I assumed they would say something like "it's a knock on ... except in the case of a kick", in which case we'd need to look up the definition of a kick. But they don't, they just talk about when the player loses possession of the ball off the hand or arm etc.
Here's the link to the laws:
P19 for the definition of knock on
P22 for the definition of possession
P63 for the law about knock onsEdit: not drunk. Yet. But assuming you're in NZ then I'm a couple of hours behind, so I'll try to catch up.
Yeah. Understand where you're coming from... even as I was drunkenly thinking through it, I spotted the loophole. There is no law about if one loses control of the ball, maybe a little forward, but then decides to "intentionally" kick it once that's happened.
But - as somebody here said a while ago - that's why these are called "laws"... in that it's actually the job of the ref to interpret them on the field, rather than just blindly follow "rules".
It's a complicated game, and I like the fact that's been recognised by the naming of "laws".And - in this case... I think we all agree the end-decision was wrong, but... Better Call Saul could argue the case for it. (I just start watching that, am enjoying it more than I thought I would)
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@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
What you're saying makes perfect Rugby sense, but I don't think that's what the laws say. They say it's a knock on if you lose possession off the hand / arm, and the ball travels forward and hits another player/ the floor. Doesn’t say anything about kicking.
A kick is not counted as a knock on because you're losing possession off the boot, rather than the arm / hand. In which case, it doesn't matter if it's intended or not.
I'm not arguing whether it was a knock-on, I'm simply pointing out by the very definition of the word as defined by the game, it doesn't constitute a kick for the purposes of ruling out a knock-on.
If the knock-on determination of possession is the same as for a tackle, i.e. you can tackle someone juggling the ball after a pass because they're held to be in possession, then a player juggling the ball and losing it forward as per the law shall be judged to have knocked-on.
It seems to me the TMO either didn't believe the player had lost possession when it came off the back of his leg (unlikely) or was adjudged as per law 11.4: It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
For what little it is worth, I don't believe the try should've been awarded.
I may have missed something but I thought they ruled ok because the ball traveled backwards as he lost possession and then hit the England player which made it look as though it had gone forward
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@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
What you're saying makes perfect Rugby sense, but I don't think that's what the laws say. They say it's a knock on if you lose possession off the hand / arm, and the ball travels forward and hits another player/ the floor. Doesn’t say anything about kicking.
A kick is not counted as a knock on because you're losing possession off the boot, rather than the arm / hand. In which case, it doesn't matter if it's intended or not.
I'm not arguing whether it was a knock-on, I'm simply pointing out by the very definition of the word as defined by the game, it doesn't constitute a kick for the purposes of ruling out a knock-on.
If the knock-on determination of possession is the same as for a tackle, i.e. you can tackle someone juggling the ball after a pass because they're held to be in possession, then a player juggling the ball and losing it forward as per the law shall be judged to have knocked-on.
It seems to me the TMO either didn't believe the player had lost possession when it came off the back of his leg (unlikely) or was adjudged as per law 11.4: It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
For what little it is worth, I don't believe the try should've been awarded.
I agree that it doesn't constitute a kick. But I think that's irrelevant - the definition of a knock on (surprisingly) doesn't depend on whether it was a kick or not.
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@nevorian said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
What you're saying makes perfect Rugby sense, but I don't think that's what the laws say. They say it's a knock on if you lose possession off the hand / arm, and the ball travels forward and hits another player/ the floor. Doesn’t say anything about kicking.
A kick is not counted as a knock on because you're losing possession off the boot, rather than the arm / hand. In which case, it doesn't matter if it's intended or not.
I'm not arguing whether it was a knock-on, I'm simply pointing out by the very definition of the word as defined by the game, it doesn't constitute a kick for the purposes of ruling out a knock-on.
If the knock-on determination of possession is the same as for a tackle, i.e. you can tackle someone juggling the ball after a pass because they're held to be in possession, then a player juggling the ball and losing it forward as per the law shall be judged to have knocked-on.
It seems to me the TMO either didn't believe the player had lost possession when it came off the back of his leg (unlikely) or was adjudged as per law 11.4: It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
For what little it is worth, I don't believe the try should've been awarded.
I may have missed something but I thought they ruled ok because the ball traveled backwards as he lost possession and then hit the England player which made it look as though it had gone forward
I'd say from when he first touched it to when he last touched it it had clearly travelled forward - he was running after all.
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
What you're saying makes perfect Rugby sense, but I don't think that's what the laws say. They say it's a knock on if you lose possession off the hand / arm, and the ball travels forward and hits another player/ the floor. Doesn’t say anything about kicking.
A kick is not counted as a knock on because you're losing possession off the boot, rather than the arm / hand. In which case, it doesn't matter if it's intended or not.
I'm not arguing whether it was a knock-on, I'm simply pointing out by the very definition of the word as defined by the game, it doesn't constitute a kick for the purposes of ruling out a knock-on.
If the knock-on determination of possession is the same as for a tackle, i.e. you can tackle someone juggling the ball after a pass because they're held to be in possession, then a player juggling the ball and losing it forward as per the law shall be judged to have knocked-on.
It seems to me the TMO either didn't believe the player had lost possession when it came off the back of his leg (unlikely) or was adjudged as per law 11.4: It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
For what little it is worth, I don't believe the try should've been awarded.
I agree that it doesn't constitute a kick. But I think that's irrelevant - the definition of a knock on (surprisingly) doesn't depend on whether it was a kick or not.
I refer you back to where I came into this discussion. @cgrant asked if it could be a kick and I said no. (https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/post/548911))
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@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?But almost every kick - intentional or not - goes forward from the hand and then onto the foot...?
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@antipodean
Apologies, I missed that, thought you were arguing something else -
Definitions from the 2021 laws, for anyone nerdy enough to care:
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.
(Theres more in LAW 11 about intentional knock-ons, tackles, ripping, charge downs etc. but I don't think any of that's relevant here)
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@junior said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?But almost every kick - intentional or not - goes forward from the hand and then onto the foot...?
Exactly. A further example would be if you’re defending a grubber kick and it suddenly keeps low and bangs you on the shins. Not a knock on. LZR lost it forward but it did not hit the ground or another player, it hit his leg (ok) and went backwards from there (ok).
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@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
That's interesting. So, by that definition, I couldn't throw the ball over my shoulder and then kick it back over my head with my heel, regather and then score?
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@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
Ach. Shithouse. Firstly, awful refereeing. First try was a complete shocker. Big ups for Biggar and Adams for the foresight and execution but damn that was poor from the ref
Ian McGeechan in the Telegraph thought the try bizarre and England hard done by. Interestingly, asks if Gauzere said time-on as he believed Biggar was going for a penalty kick, which begs the question: did Biggar indicate he was going for goal?
Apart from that, I thought Gauzere was OK. Pretty consistent at the breakdown and communicated well.
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@junior said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
That's interesting. So, by that definition, I couldn't throw the ball over my shoulder and then kick it back over my head with my heel, regather and then score?
That very move has been done in a lower league game in England a few years ago. It's on youtube somewhere. A feller called Alan Knuckley if I recall. Good skills and pretty funny to watch.
