All Blacks v France Test 3
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@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
Thought the debutantes, Goodhue and Frizzell, were alright without setting the world on fire. In particular, I was hoping to see a few big hits from SF, but must have missed any there were.
Early days, as both young, but quite a lot to do, in view of the completion in their spots, if they want to lock down slots.
I didn't watch Frizzell that closely, but Goodhue certainly didn't look out of place at this level. Probably needs more confidence to show out, but then again when your 10 is taking the risks the centres need to be conservative.
What he didn't do is show anything more than the player most think is at risk (ALB). If he wants to knock him aside he needs to grab his chances.Read an interesting observation the other day that maybe SBW looked so good was that he was operating outside DMac and playing close to the advantage line. That has some merit. Think when SBW has looked really good in the past and it was outside Cruden who would also take the ball to the line, short pass or take a half gap.
That 'light on the feet stepping 10' does seem to bring the best out of him.On the assumption Crotty and SBW are locks and AB selectors seem to have a preference for a bigger 12 I'd have thought Laumape has the edge on ALB, and particularly JG. So it could well end up a shoot out between ALB and JG for 13, and I concur that the new man hasn't done enough (yet?).
IIRC we've agreed on Cruden/SBW before. AC often played very flat and challenged the line, with SBW coming in flat on a line close to him. If AC passed he'd create a little extra space for SBW, who was lethal in that situation.
SBW has never looked quite as good outside DC or BB. Nonu on the other hand never quite sparked outside Crudes, but we all know what he did the G10OAT!
I just think it may be interesting tactically for the coaches with that knowledge.
If you know that DMac/SBW can create together, do you set up the plan to get that combo on against a flat defence if you need to?
Do you have that combo in mind even with keeping BB on the field?
Could we see a scenario where DMac comes off the bench and pushes BB back to 15?
How do you fit both BFA and JB into this scenario?
If DMac becomes important in this planning then we go to the RWC with 2 10s and a utility 10. How does that affect the mix for the 4 outside backs given that he also covers 15. If both BFA and JB are there that only leaves room for two specialist wingers.Will all be interesting.
Lots of good ideas.
One thought: if we're in a tight game and DMac comes off bench I can't see ABs naturally taking BB's hands off the tiller. In easy games it wouldn't matter, but that said would be lethal.
What if the game is close because Beauden is struggling to make it happen at 10?
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@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
On the DMac debate, a few comments:
Overall he played well at 10. Some sensational attacking and put pace on the ball with his passing (c.f. Pollard in Poms 1 & 2). SBW looked great outside him.
Has got some boot on him for a wee fella! Yes he kicked it too far on one obvious occasion, but that was unlucky, given he kicked from within his 22. The great D.B. Clarke would have been impressed with that yardage!
Not convinced, though, on his backline generalship. Give him a dry track, good service (much better this week, Nugget) and a tiring oppo and he is mainly excellent. But still throwing some minus 7 passes, which will bite us at some point if not sorted.
The big question for me is how would be do on a wet day, soft pitch and trench warfare? That is where 10s like Sexton are worth their weight in gold. As I think Zinny used to say, it's when the scrum is going backwards you see just how good the no. 8 is. Bear in mind that Japan in October, could well have those conditions, and we have Boks in our group.
My inclination is the Mo'unga would shine better on such a day, although I acknowledge the Lions match didn't support that theory. Sometimes we'll need a first five who realises that nothing's on and will play territory by nudging it into the corner.
Hope to see more of both of them, but for me DMac is ideal off the bench but not necessarily the answer if BB crocked.
Did he have a bad game? From my short memory, I laid the blame on the captains arrogance. If they took the shots at goal, Crusaders would've won, and Richie would've been a hero and listed ahead of DMac on the pecking order.
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On the Rieko Ioane debate, an article from Rugby Heaven :
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Long term his future may be at 13, but right now he needs to play wing (looking at you Tana) to continue to polish his game, his cause isnt being helped by playing 12, or even 13 at the blues, assuming he stays there...
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I really don't understand the insistence of moving Rieko to 13 right now. We have ALB, Goodhue (both longterm prospects) and Crotty already. 12 is a bigger issue for us but there's no way we should be wasting his acceleration/pace in that position (Tana FFS).
Let him play 11 until he gets 50+ tries and then move him into the midfield.
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@chester-draws said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
Thought the debutantes, Goodhue and Frizzell, were alright without setting the world on fire. In particular, I was hoping to see a few big hits from SF, but must have missed any there were.
Early days, as both young, but quite a lot to do, in view of the completion in their spots, if they want to lock down slots.
I didn't watch Frizzell that closely, but Goodhue certainly didn't look out of place at this level. Probably needs more confidence to show out, but then again when your 10 is taking the risks the centres need to be conservative.
What he didn't do is show anything more than the player most think is at risk (ALB). If he wants to knock him aside he needs to grab his chances.Read an interesting observation the other day that maybe SBW looked so good was that he was operating outside DMac and playing close to the advantage line. That has some merit. Think when SBW has looked really good in the past and it was outside Cruden who would also take the ball to the line, short pass or take a half gap.
That 'light on the feet stepping 10' does seem to bring the best out of him.On the assumption Crotty and SBW are locks and AB selectors seem to have a preference for a bigger 12 I'd have thought Laumape has the edge on ALB, and particularly JG. So it could well end up a shoot out between ALB and JG for 13, and I concur that the new man hasn't done enough (yet?).
IIRC we've agreed on Cruden/SBW before. AC often played very flat and challenged the line, with SBW coming in flat on a line close to him. If AC passed he'd create a little extra space for SBW, who was lethal in that situation.
SBW has never looked quite as good outside DC or BB. Nonu on the other hand never quite sparked outside Crudes, but we all know what he did the G10OAT!
I just think it may be interesting tactically for the coaches with that knowledge.
If you know that DMac/SBW can create together, do you set up the plan to get that combo on against a flat defence if you need to?
Do you have that combo in mind even with keeping BB on the field?
Could we see a scenario where DMac comes off the bench and pushes BB back to 15?
How do you fit both BFA and JB into this scenario?
If DMac becomes important in this planning then we go to the RWC with 2 10s and a utility 10. How does that affect the mix for the 4 outside backs given that he also covers 15. If both BFA and JB are there that only leaves room for two specialist wingers.Will all be interesting.
Lots of good ideas.
One thought: if we're in a tight game and DMac comes off bench I can't see ABs naturally taking BB's hands off the tiller. In easy games it wouldn't matter, but that said would be lethal.
What if the game is close because Beauden is struggling to make it happen at 10?
Yeah then we can chuck DMac out there to crab across field against a good defense and put his outsides under even more pressure. The absolute last thing we want is DMac trying to "make it happen" in a tight test.
DMac had a great game, sure, but it was a dead rubber against demoralised French team with one foot on the plane. Think we need to take a few steps back and let him prove himself in the tighter matches against a committed defense before deciding to sub him on at 10 ahead of Beauden with the game in the balance. At 15 for sure, but not 10. Not yet anyway.
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On the Dmac....
I've been a massive critic of his but his efforts this series have given me enough to reconsider. Much prefer him at 15 or as an impact player but I gotta admit that on the whole he did well at 10 last weekend. The quality of ball he got in that game vs the 2nd test though was a vast improvement so it certainly helped him. Thought he and SBW went very well together too. Not sure if one made the other look good but as a combination it certainly has its meriots.
While he still reminds me of a skitterish cat at times, I think I'm willing to put up with the odd brain fart that he serves up in exchange for some absolute brilliance at times. World cup final with Dmac?? Geeez I dunno yet...but hell if beaver could do it then surely Dmac is capable
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@bovidae said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
I'm still not comfortable when TJP comes on in a tight test. It's like watching Phipps replace Genia.
Quoted, as it should be read more than once. The drop off at 9 is huuuuuge
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@no-quarter said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
I really don't understand the insistence of moving Rieko to 13 right now. We have ALB, Goodhue (both longterm prospects) and Crotty already. 12 is a bigger issue for us but there's no way we should be wasting his acceleration/pace in that position (Tana FFS).
Let him play 11 until he gets 50+ tries and then move him into the midfield.
I think it's valuable that Rieko continues to get time at 13 for the purposes of moving him there during a test.
With the midfield consisting of players who constantly get injured (SBW, Crotty) and others who have yet to nail down starting spots (ALB, Goodhue, Laumape) (plus the fact Rieko has looked very sharp when he has played 13 for the ABs) I really like the idea of Rieko continuing to get time at 13.
The value of being able to shift Rieko to 13 during a test is huge - especially when you think about small World Cup squads and versatility plus what you want the makeup of the bench to be.
However getting time at 13, and moving to 13 during a test is different from Rieko shifting to 13 completely (i.e. starting the majority of his tests there).
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@jk said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
On the Dmac....
World cup final with Dmac?? Geeez I dunno yet...but hell if beaver could do it then surely Dmac is capableWoah woah woah right there buddy! DMac is no where near the class and legend that Beaver is and was!
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@no-quarter I don't recall a certain game in a world cup that never happened where the ABs trusted what wasn't working right up the moment they lost.
If your Plan B is to keep trying Plan A until it works, then anyone who can beat Plan A has you nobbled.
Sure Beauden should be starting, but we've seen at Super and Test level that sometimes he just doesn't seem to be able to get his backline firing. If we have no way out of that, we are screwed. All because we're too scared to take a risk? Hardly the current NZ opinion on how to play rugby.
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@chester-draws yeah I think it was Goldie I heard during the week talk about how people always ask about 'plan b' when 'plan a' isnt working and he was like if 'plan a' aint working, you are already gone.
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@kiwimurph I don't really buy this versatility stuff when it comes to our front line players. These are the guys playing most of the games in their "proper" positions. Ioane isn't going to turn up playing centre in a minnow game anymore than Beauden is going to be playing fullback in the same match. He's going to be be rested.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@chester-draws yeah I think it was Goldie I heard during the week talk about how people always ask about 'plan b' when 'plan a' isnt working and he was like if 'plan a' aint working, you are already gone.
Is that true though? I'm sure there's been games where we've played a wide game in the first half and then adjusted and played up the middle - didn't that happen against France a couple of years back.
Also, didn't the ABs try a bunch of game plans in the pool stages of 2015 so that they had them in their armour for the finals?
Maybe things have moved on since Goldies day? Maybe if Hart had a plan B of moving Cullen back to fullback and Goldie back to his right wing in the second half of the 99 semi things wouldn't have gone so bad ...
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@nepia maybe that is part of the plan to change things up mid-game, much easier to do if you are winning.
I think he was referring to a RWC game where a team get a roll on and no amount of changing tactics is gonna stop them.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@nepia maybe that is part of the plan to change things up mid-game, much easier to do if you are winning.
I think he was referring to a RWC game where a team get a roll on and no amount of changing tactics is gonna stop them.
Sounds like him covering for 99
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@nepia I think they will change mid-game, and I'm not suggesting we would move DMac on early, but Beauden for all his brilliance in some areas isn't the most flexible player. If he could play up closer to the line he already would (at least sometimes).
Various people have commented how SBW looks good with a first five who plays up. If that is where you want to change to, then BB doesn't seem to work.
@taniwharugby Goldie was about as good a coach as I am. Surely no-one, even school coaches, think you should play your pre-game plan consistently when it isn't working. That's mental!
