All Blacks v France Test #2
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Now, after this decision about Fall's red card, does anyone still understand what is, and what isn't allowed when jumping to catch a ball? As long as you keep your eyes on the ball, everything is okay? Will refs know which decision to take? I assume, if the same thing happened again, the player in Fall's position will get a yellow, but will refs dare to give even a yellow, after the WR Judicial Committee throwing Gardner under the bus?
They won't, but I wish NZR would appeal this decision; if only to get more clarity.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@gt12 did you notice when Fifita took his knock? Not excusing him, but obviously he took a knock at some point so if this has happened maybe he wasn't fully cognitive??
About minute 58 when Fifita got hurt the first time, but I’m not sure if that was a head knock. Worth taking into account though.
He was clearly a passenger in the last five though, and Ardie was busy as fuck.
Ardie is just innacurate is all. I think we need a flanker coach (ahem, McCaw?) to help him get a bit more effective across his whole time out there.
Certainly, I won’t blame his effort anyway.
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@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
Forgive me for intimating we might take a leaf out of AFL books, but surely those crazies have a rule to reduce the carnage which might otherwise result from their marking antics?
Big difference between the two is that they more often have a pack of guys all moving in the same direction. The collisions therefore have less force and, more often, guys land safely. With rugby, guys contesting are almost always moving in opposite directions, which increases the impact of the collisions and, in turn, creates more risk.
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@junior said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
Forgive me for intimating we might take a leaf out of AFL books, but surely those crazies have a rule to reduce the carnage which might otherwise result from their marking antics?
Big difference between the two is that they more often have a pack of guys all moving in the same direction. The collisions therefore have less force and, more often, guys land safely. With rugby, guys contesting are almost always moving in opposite directions, which increases the impact of the collisions and, in turn, creates more risk.
I remember years ago there were lots of big head on collisions. You don't see it at all now. I wonder what rules they've put in to make that safer
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so IF ALB has pushed Fall, this will in no way have affected his run in, look how far away Fall & BB are at the point when ALB could have pushed him
then the next still shows Fall still about a metre from the impact point when BB is going almost straight up, not from a long way back as someone may have alluded to (I am bored AF at work waiting for TR Jnr to finish up at Scouts)
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Just when i thought rugby surely couldn't sink any lower they go and pull this out. Seriously what the fuck is going on? Before we had a fairly strict set of parameters with a little bit of grey. Now there is just grey as far as the eye can see.
What also pisses me off is now the media have started with the "red card was wrong, france dudded 2 weeks in a row".
The red card was right. The judiciary are the incompetent ones here. I would be pissed if i was the ref.Serious question: Are the judiciary controlled by World Rugby or are they just a bunch of lawyers doing their best to come up with complicated rulings and obscure defences? WR should be annoyed by this because it undoes all the work they have put into this area in the last few years. I guarantee they won't say anything publically about it though. If it was an AB getting off on the other hand.....
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@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
Just when i thought rugby surely couldn't sink any lower they go and pull this out. Seriously what the fuck is going on? Before we had a fairly strict set of parameters with a little bit of grey. Now there is just grey as far as the eye can see.
What also pisses me off is now the media have started with the "red card was wrong, france dudded 2 weeks in a row".
The red card was right. The judiciary are the incompetent ones here. I would be pissed if i was the ref.Serious question: Are the judiciary controlled by World Rugby or are they just a bunch of lawyers doing their best to come up with complicated rulings and obscure defences? WR should be annoyed by this because it undoes all the work they have put into this area in the last few years. I guarantee they won't say anything publically about it though. If it was an AB getting off on the other hand.....
If the judiciary is controlled by WR, there's a huge natural justice problem. Judicial committees, officers, etc should rule independently. The appointment criteria should ensure you get the right people for the job; if not, reconsider those criteria.
Edit: maybe not; the appeal committee IIRC are all independent lawyers.
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@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
Serious question: Are the judiciary controlled by World Rugby or are they just a bunch of lawyers doing their best to come up with complicated rulings and obscure defences? WR should be annoyed by this because it undoes all the work they have put into this area in the last few years. I guarantee they won't say anything publically about it though. If it was an AB getting off on the other hand.....
You mean like how Tu'ungafasi got off?
Th whole reason they rubbed out the red is because Tu'ungafasi wasn't even carded. I suppose it's all down to perspective. Had it been Cane in hospital with a fractured skull, I wonder if you would have anything to say about the offending player unintentionally injuring Cane.
I'll make it simple:
Cane & Tu'ungafasi unintentionally injure Grosso = No card/citing
Fall unintentionally injures Barrett = Off for 70 odd min with a red cardIt looks so bent that WR had to do something - And it does little to console the French imo.
I was at the game, and literally everyone was talking about how they didnt pay to watch 15-14. That call killed the game. Red cards need a 10min binning followed by an enforced subbing of the offending player.
Anyways, the game may have been forgettable, but the atmosphere generated by the sellout crowd redeemed the night. Will be back for the AB vs Bok game. Probably be a bittersweet moment.
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I'll try - you've sort of got the point, and you sort of haven't.
@pn said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
You mean like how Tu'ungafasi got off?
Th whole reason they rubbed out the red is because Tu'ungafasi wasn't even carded. I suppose it's all down to perspective. Had it been Cane in hospital with a fractured skull, I wonder if you would have anything to say about the offending player unintentionally injuring Cane.
In the real world, the two situations are unrelated. They aren't the same type of tackle, they aren't even the same players. They are just the same teams in the same series - there is no legal binding between the two situations.
I'll make it simple:
Cane & Tu'ungafasi unintentionally injure Grosso = No card/citing
Fall unintentionally injures Barrett = Off for 70 odd min with a red cardIt looks so bent that WR had to do something - And it does little to console the French imo.
Yes, I agree. But they need to be consistent on similar incidents. They need to acknowledge why Ofa wasn't red carded compared to indicents which bare a hell of a lot of simliarity. And now, they also need to really explain why Fall hasn't been cited (and had his red card rescinded), even though there have been plenty of other similar situations where they players have been out for weeks.
What they have done now, is thrown ALB under the bus, which once again makes it look like the "All Blacks get away with everything".
I was at the game, and literally everyone was talking about how they didnt pay to watch 15-14. That call killed the game. Red cards need a 10min binning followed by an enforced subbing of the offending player.
Agree - but not for all situations. Badly positioned tackles, mid air collisions, sure. But second yellows and straight knock out punches - no.
Anyways, the game may have been forgettable, but the atmosphere generated by the sellout crowd redeemed the night. Will be back for the AB vs Bok game. Probably be a bittersweet moment.
Pretty rare to hear that there was a good atmosphere at an NZ match from a neutral! Good stuff.
On a seperate note, must be happy with the weekends events ... Boks have their tails in the air!
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@pn said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
Serious question: Are the judiciary controlled by World Rugby or are they just a bunch of lawyers doing their best to come up with complicated rulings and obscure defences? WR should be annoyed by this because it undoes all the work they have put into this area in the last few years. I guarantee they won't say anything publically about it though. If it was an AB getting off on the other hand.....
You mean like how Tu'ungafasi got off?
Th whole reason they rubbed out the red is because Tu'ungafasi wasn't even carded. I suppose it's all down to perspective. Had it been Cane in hospital with a fractured skull, I wonder if you would have anything to say about the offending player unintentionally injuring Cane.
I'll make it simple:
Cane & Tu'ungafasi unintentionally injure Grosso = No card/citing
Fall unintentionally injures Barrett = Off for 70 odd min with a red cardIt looks so bent that WR had to do something - And it does little to console the French imo.
I was at the game, and literally everyone was talking about how they didnt pay to watch 15-14. That call killed the game. Red cards need a 10min binning followed by an enforced subbing of the offending player.
Anyways, the game may have been forgettable, but the atmosphere generated by the sellout crowd redeemed the night. Will be back for the AB vs Bok game. Probably be a bittersweet moment.
How can you compare the Tu'ungafasi incident with this?
And yes it's a shame that the game was ruined as a spectacle but dangerous play is dangerous play and until now WR have been very clear about the sanctions for these types of incidents. Obviously that's all gone to holy hell now so good luck refs.
But seriously after the Lions series how could anyone in their right mind think that officials pander to the ABs? People either have very short memories or are completely fucking stupid.
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What utter bullshit. If I was anyone of the other players who had gotten a red card for such an incident in the past I would be seething. I am thinking of the Payne incident off the top of my head. But I am sure there are others. The Ref was right under current rules straight red.
On another note, I see all the talking heads are saying red cards ruin games and we need to solve this problem for accidental contacts. One week after they were baying for a red card for Ofa. Pack of fucking hypocrites. Where was the call for this orange card when Sonny bill didn't get low enough in the lions test? That ruined the test, that was a dynamic impact affected by a 3rd party!
The biggest joke of all is that during the SA Eng Match one of the English wingers copped a shoulder to the head as he was going down in a tackle. But as there was no injury, thats fine! Never mentioned again. I hate to sound like an old man but this shit is ruining rugby.
Intentional dirty play should get a red.
Reckless a yellow.If you miss it the citing official should pick it up. We don't need 35 different coloured cards to officiate rugby we need common sense.
My personal take on the incident is that I hate that it's a red card offense to try and compete for the ball. But that is the precedent and that was red all day long under the current interpretations.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
But seriously after the Lions series how could anyone in their right mind think that officials pander to the ABs? People either have very short memories or are completely fucking stupid.
It's the third option. The self fulfilling prophecy. The conclusion is already decided and all evidence which enforces it is acknowledged, those that doesn't, is ignored.
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@mooshld said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
My personal take on the incident is that I hate that it's a red card offense to try and compete for the ball.
It's fucken not! This is the bullshit that people are buying into that is "ruining the game" for them. It's (usually) a red card offence to be an idiot and pretend you can't see anything else but the ball - which would then put you in trouble for not taking any care at all to check your surroundings. Well shit I was out duck shooting and this duck dropped down into a crowd of people, so I tried to shoot it, I couldn't see the people. Who knew that was a bad thing?
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WR prove yet again how defensive and reactionary they are. Dare to criticise the way we instruct the refs and we'll say the refs got it wrong.
Show them how their attempts to stop head injuries aren't stopping them but instead are creating controversy headlines for the game and they will double down with another stupid and inconsistent application.
I give the refs a bit of stick sometimes but in this instance I feel sorry for Angus G. He did exactly what he was told to do only to be made look incompetent.
It wasn't that long ago that WR completely supported the ludicrous RC decision on Finn Russell where he was standing still to catch a ball, and a running in and leaping player launched toward him at speed creating the clear danger of a knee to the head.Ignoring comparisons though, it is clear that the laws do not stop accidents and that treating accidents the same as intentional foul play only makes the game look stupid and are very unfair on the accountable party. There can be very easy ways around this but they fail to entertain addressing this and instead wriggle around being inconsistent at hearings.
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@bones I don't see it the same to be honest. I guess I was trying to say that there is now only one way to compete for the ball, jump. No jump well you didn't compete.
I agree people charging in with no regard for others around should be penalised. But I also think that in all fairness if you launch yourself at a stationary player from 3 meters away and get flipped as a consequence that is tough shit.
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@mooshld said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@bones I don't see it the same to be honest. I guess I was trying to say that there is now only one way to compete for the ball, jump. No jump well you didn't compete.
I agree people charging in with no regard for others around should be penalised. But I also think that in all fairness if you launch yourself at a stationary player from 3 meters away and get flipped as a consequence that is tough shit.
Well I must watch too much rugby. I've seen a heck of a lot more contests where there was little to no jump than ones where there is a big leap.
I don't think anyone (even WR) disagrees with your second para.
