All Blacks 2024
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Some posters seem to forget we played with 13 men at a key part of the game.
Don't think anyone's forgotten the poor discipline at key parts of the game we've seen creeping back in.
I seem to recall it was a feature of Foster's teams as well.
Which, considering we've gone backwards, kinda proves the point that Robertson (a) isn't the coaching Jesus he was hyped up to be or (b) both are equally good coaches and there's deeper problems.
You've hated Razor since day one and didn't even want him as coach. You're comparing 6 tests to 4 years of substandard, mediocre horse manure. I'm disheartened as any one else about the current results and honestly expected more from this side this year but give me a break. You want Razor to fail to prove your narrative.
I've hated Robertson from day one? Fucking news to me when I wanted him as AB coach after Ireland III last year.
My narrative is we've gone backwards, the new coach might not be the dogs bollocks, and the issues might not be with the coaching skills. If you think having that opinion is wanting Robertson to fail, I'd love to know your logic.
Not being a Razor cheerleader = hate. This is the modern way.
Reality is that Sir Graham was right - he would have benefitted from getting out of the Canterbury environment and coaching elsewhere. Then you do the learning - ideally with someone else's international team - and get the pressure, have to build different systems with new players, etc. After three titles, the next 4 were 'more of the same' coaching-wise.
I think you're seeing that approach in the selections. Almost all of the coaches have Canterbury connections. If in doubt, Razor's leaning back to his roots - hence Chay, Havili, Bell etc ... It's fine as long as it works - but if it doesn't, you're in trouble.
The bigger risk is that the 'path to the ABs through Canterbury' meme is real and takes hold. And then you hollow out all the fringer players who just head overseas because they don't see the pathway to higher honours. As someone said above (and very insightfully), it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I want the ABs to win. But I also think the problems ran deeper than Foster being a shithouse coach. We've lost our coaching IP overseas, we aren't innovating at the top level - Rugby in this country is in a tough place. If I wanted to invest, I'd invest in coaching, not bringing back players from overseas (Mo'unga/Fritzel).
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@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
None of it makes sense.
It's the Fern. Was ever thus.
Re Robertson, there was certainly a percentage of posters and the general population who were against Foster from the moment he was appointed and were vocally anti him at all times.
I think the majority would have wished for a more inspiring choice than Fozzie particularly after 2018-19, particularly given his pretty insipid reign at the Chiefs.
Results were disappointing. I don't think there would have been a resounding backlash if he'd been replaced last year.
I do think the way NZR annointed Razor was piss poor and Foster's reaction was mature and restrained.
So we come to Robertson. He was massively hyped by media and a large number of fans. Expectations were raised and he has failed to deliver on them. Yes it is early days and there are extenuating circumstances - there were too with Foster. I don't think it is unreasonable to question whether Robertson's coaching credentials have been inflated because he had a very strong squad in what is being shown to be a pretty poor comp.
I hope he does well and turns it round but the early signs are inconclusive at best worrying at worst
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@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Some posters seem to forget we played with 13 men at a key part of the game.
Don't think anyone's forgotten the poor discipline at key parts of the game we've seen creeping back in.
I seem to recall it was a feature of Foster's teams as well.
Which, considering we've gone backwards, kinda proves the point that Robertson (a) isn't the coaching Jesus he was hyped up to be or (b) both are equally good coaches and there's deeper problems.
You've hated Razor since day one and didn't even want him as coach. You're comparing 6 tests to 4 years of substandard, mediocre horse manure. I'm disheartened as any one else about the current results and honestly expected more from this side this year but give me a break. You want Razor to fail to prove your narrative.
This seems a little unfair..
I don't know how many times those of us who were skeptical about Robertson were told how much better things would be by his fanbase. The postings post Foster reappointment and Robertson drubbing were really quite nasty. I mean, look at what you've written about the 4 years where we didn't perform as high as AB standards of years gone by. Won the RC every year, and came within a bees dick of the WC. Given the closing of gaps of the top teams, thats not that bad.
So here we are, with a misfiring AB team under Robertson, and people are rightly asking where this brilliance is that we were told was going to happen.
Victors point is a fair one.
Nah, it's not. We went badly backwards under Foster, with obvious problems which were not addressed over a long period of time. We played shit, and selections were shit.
All apparently forgiven due to the mighty RWC turnaround which consisted of: lost to France, beat Ireland and Argentina, lost to SA.People couldn't understand why you would appoint a head coach with zero head coach success and what is perceived to be a shit coach selection process, and the result of that was a sense of relief that we would get a coach who had been successful. It's got nothing to do with this false 'messiah' bullshit, it's a straight reaction to the shit process last time around which resulted in shit results.
The point of falsely comparing 6 tests vs years of shit with no improvement is the fair one.
We've gone from winning the RC and narrowly losing a RWC final by one point to probably coming 3rd in the RC and narrowly winning against the 9th ranked team in the world.
At least we can feel relieved the coach selection process was done right this time round.,
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@brodean said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
My point is most players aren't thriving and consistently playing at their best.
Ratima for most of the games has just gone through the motions passing the ball to Mckenzie. We've seen very little of the running game and try scoring from the Super season. We only started to see that this weekend.
Sititi got dropped from the 23 after his second game off the bench because he gave away 3 penalties in 20 minutes. He didn't handle the pressure well from the Pumas in that last 20.
He struggled initially against the Boks but grew into the game and played well. He was excellent this week against the 10th ranked side. So it's been a mixed bag. He was consistently excellent at SR level except in the final we he and Finau got dominated.
But isn't this exactly what you'd expect from young players starting out and finding their way both in the team and at the higher level?
I hardly think it's a valid reason to rubbish the coaching. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
But isn't this exactly what you'd expect from young players starting out and finding their way both in the team and at the higher level?
are they the ones making those mistakes? We lost some leadership for sure, but you expect more from senior leaders.
Just look at Taylor. Playing pretty well, but with a high-ish error rate. And the ruck penality he gave away at the end of the first half against England was unforgivable. ScoBa is a bit the same - had outstanding involvements, but also some dumbass stuff.
Reality is if you want a cool, level headed, focussed leadership group I don't know if you get that with ScoBa, JB and RD.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Some posters seem to forget we played with 13 men at a key part of the game.
Don't think anyone's forgotten the poor discipline at key parts of the game we've seen creeping back in.
I seem to recall it was a feature of Foster's teams as well.
Which, considering we've gone backwards, kinda proves the point that Robertson (a) isn't the coaching Jesus he was hyped up to be or (b) both are equally good coaches and there's deeper problems.
You've hated Razor since day one and didn't even want him as coach. You're comparing 6 tests to 4 years of substandard, mediocre horse manure. I'm disheartened as any one else about the current results and honestly expected more from this side this year but give me a break. You want Razor to fail to prove your narrative.
This seems a little unfair..
I don't know how many times those of us who were skeptical about Robertson were told how much better things would be by his fanbase. The postings post Foster reappointment and Robertson drubbing were really quite nasty. I mean, look at what you've written about the 4 years where we didn't perform as high as AB standards of years gone by. Won the RC every year, and came within a bees dick of the WC. Given the closing of gaps of the top teams, thats not that bad.
So here we are, with a misfiring AB team under Robertson, and people are rightly asking where this brilliance is that we were told was going to happen.
Victors point is a fair one.
Nah, it's not. We went badly backwards under Foster, with obvious problems which were not addressed over a long period of time. We played shit, and selections were shit.
All apparently forgiven due to the mighty RWC turnaround which consisted of: lost to France, beat Ireland and Argentina, lost to SA.People couldn't understand why you would appoint a head coach with zero head coach success and what is perceived to be a shit coach selection process, and the result of that was a sense of relief that we would get a coach who had been successful. It's got nothing to do with this false 'messiah' bullshit, it's a straight reaction to the shit process last time around which resulted in shit results.
The point of falsely comparing 6 tests vs years of shit with no improvement is the fair one.
We've gone from winning the RC and narrowly losing a RWC final by one point to probably coming 3rd in the RC and narrowly winning against the 9th ranked team in the world.
At least we can feel relieved the coach selection process was done right this time round.,
The process is important. Disregarding Robertson, we have a number of very good coaches around in Schmidt, Joseph, Rennie - and any process which doesn't give us the best chance of having the best applicants apply is terrible management.
We've gone from multiple years of shit to some more shit - I think personally with glimpses of improvement (i.e. first 40 in SA) - but even if you don't think that, there is a world of difference between years of shit with continuity vs a new coach with a new gameplan and new players delivering some shit in the first half year. I hate losing as much as anyone, but judgement - or at least comparison -should come later.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Some posters seem to forget we played with 13 men at a key part of the game.
Don't think anyone's forgotten the poor discipline at key parts of the game we've seen creeping back in.
I seem to recall it was a feature of Foster's teams as well.
Which, considering we've gone backwards, kinda proves the point that Robertson (a) isn't the coaching Jesus he was hyped up to be or (b) both are equally good coaches and there's deeper problems.
You've hated Razor since day one and didn't even want him as coach. You're comparing 6 tests to 4 years of substandard, mediocre horse manure. I'm disheartened as any one else about the current results and honestly expected more from this side this year but give me a break. You want Razor to fail to prove your narrative.
This seems a little unfair..
I don't know how many times those of us who were skeptical about Robertson were told how much better things would be by his fanbase. The postings post Foster reappointment and Robertson drubbing were really quite nasty. I mean, look at what you've written about the 4 years where we didn't perform as high as AB standards of years gone by. Won the RC every year, and came within a bees dick of the WC. Given the closing of gaps of the top teams, thats not that bad.
So here we are, with a misfiring AB team under Robertson, and people are rightly asking where this brilliance is that we were told was going to happen.
Victors point is a fair one.
Nah, it's not. We went badly backwards under Foster, with obvious problems which were not addressed over a long period of time. We played shit, and selections were shit.
All apparently forgiven due to the mighty RWC turnaround which consisted of: lost to France, beat Ireland and Argentina, lost to SA.People couldn't understand why you would appoint a head coach with zero head coach success and what is perceived to be a shit coach selection process, and the result of that was a sense of relief that we would get a coach who had been successful. It's got nothing to do with this false 'messiah' bullshit, it's a straight reaction to the shit process last time around which resulted in shit results.
The point of falsely comparing 6 tests vs years of shit with no improvement is the fair one.
We've gone from winning the RC and narrowly losing a RWC final by one point to probably coming 3rd in the RC and narrowly winning against the 9th ranked team in the world.
At least we can feel relieved the coach selection process was done right this time round.,
The process is important. Disregarding Robertson, we have a number of very good coaches around in Schmidt, Joseph, Rennie - and any process which doesn't give us the best chance of having the best applicants apply is terrible management.
We've gone from multiple years of shit to some more shit - I think personally with glimpses of improvement (i.e. first 40 in SA) - but even if you don't think that, there is a world of difference between years of shit with continuity vs a new coach with a new gameplan and new players delivering some shit in the first half year. I hate losing as much as anyone, but judgement - or at least comparison -should come later.
The main problem is seemingly around mentality and leadership. We've got worse in 8 Tests and show little improvement. This is either down to the coaching or something deeper..
Which is it do you think?
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2024:
Going to be a long few years with these poor selections.
Curate's egg. Some selections have good - Ratima, Vaai, Sititi - while others have been meh. Not convinced by Blackadder and Reece for example.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Some posters seem to forget we played with 13 men at a key part of the game.
Don't think anyone's forgotten the poor discipline at key parts of the game we've seen creeping back in.
I seem to recall it was a feature of Foster's teams as well.
Which, considering we've gone backwards, kinda proves the point that Robertson (a) isn't the coaching Jesus he was hyped up to be or (b) both are equally good coaches and there's deeper problems.
You've hated Razor since day one and didn't even want him as coach. You're comparing 6 tests to 4 years of substandard, mediocre horse manure. I'm disheartened as any one else about the current results and honestly expected more from this side this year but give me a break. You want Razor to fail to prove your narrative.
I've hated Robertson from day one? Fucking news to me when I wanted him as AB coach after Ireland III last year.
My narrative is we've gone backwards, the new coach might not be the dogs bollocks, and the issues might not be with the coaching skills. If you think having that opinion is wanting Robertson to fail, I'd love to know your logic.
Not being a Razor cheerleader = hate. This is the modern way.
Reality is that Sir Graham was right - he would have benefitted from getting out of the Canterbury environment and coaching elsewhere. Then you do the learning - ideally with someone else's international team - and get the pressure, have to build different systems with new players, etc. After three titles, the next 4 were 'more of the same' coaching-wise.
I think you're seeing that approach in the selections. Almost all of the coaches have Canterbury connections. If in doubt, Razor's leaning back to his roots - hence Chay, Havili, Bell etc ... It's fine as long as it works - but if it doesn't, you're in trouble.
The bigger risk is that the 'path to the ABs through Canterbury' meme is real and takes hold. And then you hollow out all the fringer players who just head overseas because they don't see the pathway to higher honours. As someone said above (and very insightfully), it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I want the ABs to win. But I also think the problems ran deeper than Foster being a shithouse coach. We've lost our coaching IP overseas, we aren't innovating at the top level - Rugby in this country is in a tough place. If I wanted to invest, I'd invest in coaching, not bringing back players from overseas (Mo'unga/Fritzel).
I never realized Ted said that, but he's dead right. He didn't need to stay at the Crusaders for 7 seasons.
If he didn't get the ABs job, what would he have done? Just stayed at the Crusaders?
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@Machpants said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@frugby said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
Random thoughts.
All is not well in Razorland. First and foremost, it seems the ABs are not respecting test rugby.- Not taking points when they are on offer. The default position is now to go for the corner regardless of the situation. In the McCaw days, points first and the corner would be taken when the situation demanded it.
Funnily enough a decision to take the three at 28-14 turned out to be quite handy, so not sure this is entirely true.
And had they converted most, if not all the certain tries they didn't score, taking the 3 was immaterial.
But they never do, because they lack clear heads, calmness in action, and leadership in direction. With Razor going 'oh that's awesome' no on eis going to try to improve from playing Harlem Globetrotters without the skills to back it up
How many shots did they turn down?
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@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
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@Victor-Meldrew I disagree with the premise, I think we've been all over the place but I don't think we've got worse from test to test.
30 minutes into the most recent test we were looking totally dominant and everyone was going 'ah yeah we're destroying them (but it's just the wallabies)'. The first half in SA was the best rugby I've seen from us this year. Argentina loss 2nd half was the worst. So I don't think there is any sort of consistent deterioration in performance - though there are certainly problems that are recurring and have not yet been solved.On field leadership I do think is a problem - we've lost Smith, Retallick and Whitelock - which really is a big deal. I don't think Scott Barrett is a great captain (or playing very well), I don't think TJ or BB are calm enough under pressure to be good leaders - and of course TJ and Cane are both in their last year.
Now of course the coach does choose the captain and the leadership group, but it's inarguably a lesser pool of leadership players that he has to draw from, and it's the young guys who have largely been leading the way with performance (Taylor the exception).Our selection and use of the bench has been shit - that's on the coach - and is a sizeable factor in the last 20 performance. Inexperience form the young guys, a lack of composure and leadership form the old guys, and trying to implement a new game plan under pressure (SA not Oz) and fatigue and subs means that last period of the game is the toughest to get right. To be fair, they are trying things - not the changes I would advocate, but I don't think it is being ignored.
Our kick chase and (lack of) protection for our kick receivers is the thing that grates on me as not being addressed.
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Anecdotally down the pub, at work etc - patience is wearing pretty thin with Robertson. I think this is directly related to how he was promoted as "the answer to all our problems"
Granted this is an Auckland vox pop but I haven't heard anyone complaining about not selecting Akira or Sotutu, more the dumb rugby that is being played .
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
This shifting goalposts argument was expected.
For the last four years, it was a shitty coach.
Now it is shitty players.
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
What next appears to be throwing the ball around furiously and hoping someone finds a gap.
I put that in the BBBB bucket.
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I would agree that its been a real mixed bag and agree with your points generally.
It's significant that Argentina put a record amount of points on us and we scored no tries in the second SA test. Comprehensive failure in defense and attack in different games.
So these two low points in both attack and in defense were never achieved by Foster.
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@gt12 maybe its the realization the players arent upto it, whereas last year given Fozzies track record, it had to be him?
That said, I'm not convinced of either, I think Fozzie was better than he got credit for when you reflect on his time at the helm, I think Razor still has alot to learn, but he seems to be making some odd decisions, we always knew he was a bit more innovative and likely to (despite current evidence) take a few punts, but so far, like alot of Fozzies tenure, there appears no clear vision of the bigger picture.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
I think Fozzie was better than he got credit for when you reflect on his time at the helm,
Wayne Smith really rated him. It stings, but it's true
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I'm interested in seeing two things before I throw my toys out of the cot:
- Patience and accuracy. In Bled 1 we tore the Aussies apart often in the first half where arguable decision making and poor execution prevented it from becoming a bloodbath. Admittedly this was against the Wobblies, but we have looked good on occasion against all opposition so hopefully there's a plan manifesting itself sporadically.
- Closing out games as the dominant team. We need to address the final quarter.
It's against the ninth ranked team, we're at home (even if it's Wellington) so there
shouldn't bearen't any excuses. -
@antipodean 10th ranked now.
