All Blacks vs Argentina I
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@Bones I'm pretty sure the knee or shin is a legal kick.
From first principles I thought propelling the ball forward, other than by a kick, only became a knock on if the ball touched something else, being the ground, another player, the posts or even the ref.
So if you, for example, caught the ball before it touched anything else it wasn't a knock on.
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@pakman on the former, I recall it coming up when Los did his off the knee chip and it got clarified after.
The latter, that was my understanding as well, don't recall anything about control, just the ball travelling forward and hitting something other than you before you can regain.
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I agree with the thrust of what Chris Jones was saying here. What was remarkable about the first Test was the fragility of the All Blacks and seeing players with many Test caps get so badly wrong what should be basic skills for professional rugby players to execute. Slapdash.
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@pakman said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
which Gardner adjudged a knock on 'becuase he wasn't in control when his leg connected' [is that a Law?].
My understanding it is
Players can't drop a ball (knock forward) and kick it and claim it was a kick. He must be in control of the ball before the kick
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@pakman I can't find anything on needing to be in control of the ball to make a kick. But then again I can't find anything on what constitutes a lick either (looked to me like it glanced off just above the knee before the foot and I thought a kick was from below the knee).
But the lost forward can't be cancelled out by kicking it. I think it can if you catch it though. But this is based on the refs rulings only
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By definition, if you lose the ball forward, you actually need to catch it before doing anything else. ("When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.")
So in this instance, Ratima loses the ball forward and because he doesn't catch it before kicking it, it's a knock on.
You don't see it always ruled correctly but the same thing applies if a player loses the ball forward then manages to bat it backwards before it hits the ground - by the letter of the law, that's still a knock on, even if it's ultimately hit the ground behind where it was batted back from.
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Yes I thought the ref was clear on how he lost control so could not kick it without regathering first.
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Rewatch 60 -70
Two scrums consume two of first five minutes! We go forward in the first but Ofa's side collapses. Pumas bluff at second and earn free kick as ABs go early.
In between, ball ripped from Kremer on their 22, several forward rumbles (Newell makes 4m) although always from standing starts, and Jordan comes in one out again and but for forward pass DMac was over by sticks.
At 65, Aumua,Sititi and Ioane on. Two very good kicks from DMac in back field, one a metre away from 50:22.
From lineout Niggles penalised (late - touchie?) for interfering with Puma jumper's arm on way down. IN FACT replay shows clearly his band on the ball. Gardner error.
At 67 he redeems himself by stealing Puma ball in lineout. RD brain fart leads to 5m scrum.
For scrum at 68, Puma TH bores in at 45 degrees and goes forward. Angus on other side, but looked a penalty for ABs on replay. EB misses textbook tackle on breaking 8, and try scored.
Another seven Puma points originating from dubious penalty, this time in their half.
ABs actually had much the better of period but scoreboard 0 -7.
Niggles the Bad (dubious!), the Good and the Ugly.
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@pakman said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
From lineout Niggles penalised (late - touchie?) for interfering with Puma jumper's arm on way down. IN FACT replay shows clearly his band on the ball. Gardner error.
Didn't the puma catch it, so it would be interfering with the jumper still?
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@pakman said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
Rewatch 60 -70
Two scrums consume two of first five minutes! We go forward in the first but Ofa's side collapses. Pumas bluff at second and earn free kick as ABs go early.
In between, ball ripped from Kremer on their 22, several forward rumbles (Newell makes 4m) although always from standing starts, and Jordan comes in one out again and but for forward pass DMac was over by sticks.
At 65, Aumua,Sititi and Ioane on. Two very good kicks from DMac in back field, one a metre away from 50:22.
From lineout Niggles penalised (late - touchie?) for interfering with Puma jumper's arm on way down. IN FACT replay shows clearly his band on the ball. Gardner error.
At 67 he redeems himself by stealing Puma ball in lineout. RD brain fart leads to 5m scrum.
For scrum at 68, Puma TH bores in at 45 degrees and goes forward. Angus on other side, but looked a penalty for ABs on replay. EB misses textbook tackle on breaking 8, and try scored.
Another seven Puma points originating from dubious penalty, this time in their half.
ABs actually had much the better of period but scoreboard 0 -7.
Niggles the Bad (dubious!), the Good and the Ugly.
70 - 80 And here's where it gets ugly.
ABs finish with three of the five tighties monstered by Boks in H2 of Twickenham friendly.
And a tyro loosie.
The results could have been predicted.
In first three minutes Aumua throws in crooked to first lineout, and at scrum Gardner warns Newell not to overextend and Puma LH listened, and doesn't hit, so penalty. Annoying.
Meanwhile, Pumas waste two minutes on TH sore thigh and Pablo's boots. FFS, Angus!!!
Ratima bad missed tackle and Puma 12 makes good metres but messy ruck and AB lucky turnover. From our kick Puma kicks into touch on full so lineout half way. Another crooked Aumua throw, but Pumas don't jump and Sititi recovers.
We run ball through several phases, but eventually AB forwards all on open side except Sititi who is tackled and in absence of cleaners holds on, so penalty.
Kicked to touch 30 out, but after more time wasting (this time with clock on) Pumas make the take and march AB pack back 15m in maul. THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN WITH THE STARTING EIGHT. Twickenham undertones.
Luckily RD special turnover penalty and ABs clear to touch.
Lineout at 76: Throw straight, but Sititi forgets call and doesn't jump.
Pumas drive several times, but met with good resistance, but Sititi tries to slow ball down and penalised.
Carreras converts.
Pumas then wind down, but Sititi jumps over fifth or sixth ruck and is penalised.
Game over.
Period 0 - 3.
Takeaway, Pumas ended with most experienced forwards on field and ABs with least. It showed.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@pakman said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Bones The call was grabbing jumper's arm. He didn't.
Still interfering with the jumper.
Angus, 'Must have been on way down'. He didn't see it.
EB had hand on ball at top off jump and withdrew his arm on way down leaving Puma with ball in both hands.
Nothing to see.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
Some people get confused because league has a different knock on law. They don't call a knock on if you kick it before it touches the ground
TBH I think that's better than rugby's ruling, it removes any subjective decision making by a ref. If it touches the ground directly after the hands it's knock on, if it's kicked it's not. Whereas now a quick transfer could be seen as a knock on.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
Some people get confused because league has a different knock on law. They don't call a knock on if you kick it before it touches the ground
TBH I think that's better than rugby's ruling, it removes any subjective decision making by a ref. If it touches the ground directly after the hands it's knock on, if it's kicked it's not. Whereas now a quick transfer could be seen as a knock on.
Um, a quick transfer forward is the same as a knock on...
Or do you mean a very quick drop to your boot.
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