RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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@Kiwiwomble said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Foster, as with Hansen circa 2019 before him, didn't seem to grasp what IMHO constitutes a winning style of rugby since the last cup. Foster's early teams played a helter skelter brand that felt like a poor imitation of the free running style that won us the cup in 2015. But it didn't work when we came up against England in Yokohama, and it won't work now. I think winning rugby for us is solid setpiece, an improved kicking game in terms of distance kicking and kick and chase, direct running in the forwards and midfield which can allow us to quickly recycle and open space to set our outside players free. Take points on offer to develop scoreboard pressure that forces our opponents into mistakes when they have to chase the game. If Razor can bring some or all of this I'll be happy
the only thing i would add is not being afraid to grind out points, if we're up against a big defensive team then accept we might need to put 10-20 phases together and not boot it away if we dont open them up after 3-5 phases
edit: exactly like we did against ireland, as you say
Zero turnovers vs Ireland wasn't it? That stat shows we can do it
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@canefan i think in the end thats what was so frustrating...they proved they could do it...but didnt
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I remember McLeod's interview after halftime in the France game. Basically said they planned to run them around to tire them out. But instead of driving up the guts they decided to spin it wide like touch and make all sorts of silly chip kicks. Just not smart
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I remember McLeod's interview after halftime in the France game. Basically said they planned to run them around to tire them out. But instead of driving up the guts they decided to spin it wide like touch and make all sorts of silly chip kicks. Just not smart
The Foster-era summed up really.
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Strange isn't it-we proved our forwards could be as good as anyone then we didn't use that platform effectively and consistently. But we had the players, it turns out.
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@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Strange isn't it-we proved our forwards could be as good as anyone then we didn't use that platform effectively and consistently. But we had the players, it turns out.
Yep, and the emergence of Lomax, DeGroot, Newell and Williams has added a lot.
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@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Strange isn't it-we proved our forwards could be as good as anyone then we didn't use that platform effectively and consistently. But we had the players, it turns out.
Yeah, it wasn't the cattle, it was the coach. Quelle surprise
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Strange isn't it-we proved our forwards could be as good as anyone then we didn't use that platform effectively and consistently. But we had the players, it turns out.
Yeah, it wasn't the cattle, it was the coach. Quelle surprise
Yes interesting that. Seemed to be a rather common excuse that the players weren't that good and Foster didn't have a great deal to work with.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Strange isn't it-we proved our forwards could be as good as anyone then we didn't use that platform effectively and consistently. But we had the players, it turns out.
Yeah, it wasn't the cattle, it was the coach. Quelle surprise
Yes interesting that. Seemed to be a rather common excuse that the players weren't that good and Foster didn't have a great deal to work with.
There were a number of guys that were coming to the end but were still highly effective. The two locks, Smith, Mounga and to an extent BB - he seemed to have lost a step in pace and maybe that resulted in not being able to carry through with a lot of the little dinks over the top because he wasn't such an athletic freak anymore? On top of those guys you have some really strong blokes coming through who are stepping up to be the next leadership group, Save being the prime example but also the other two Barrets. Add on to that pair of out and out finishers on the wings and I'd say, cattle isn't the problem.
What you don't have is an all time great team, packed with leadership and rugby smarts a la 2015. Expectations were set very high from that time. I should know, we had similar issues post 2003.
However, an echoing what Flats said re SA, I'd struggle to see what game NZ were trying to play at times. For sure, when you got it right, it worked very nicely thank you but then the next time around everything got turned on it's head and the old errors/failings come to light again.
Most un-NZ like.
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@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Strange isn't it-we proved our forwards could be as good as anyone then we didn't use that platform effectively and consistently. But we had the players, it turns out.
Yeah, it wasn't the cattle, it was the coach. Quelle surprise
Yes interesting that. Seemed to be a rather common excuse that the players weren't that good and Foster didn't have a great deal to work with.
There were a number of guys that were coming to the end but were still highly effective. The two locks, Smith, Mounga and to an extent BB - he seemed to have lost a step in pace and maybe that resulted in not being able to carry through with a lot of the little dinks over the top because he wasn't such an athletic freak anymore? On top of those guys you have some really strong blokes coming through who are stepping up to be the next leadership group, Save being the prime example but also the other two Barrets. Add on to that pair of out and out finishers on the wings and I'd say, cattle isn't the problem.
What you don't have is an all time great team, packed with leadership and rugby smarts a la 2015. Expectations were set very high from that time. I should know, we had similar issues post 2003.
However, an echoing what Flats said re SA, I'd struggle to see what game NZ were trying to play at times. For sure, when you got it right, it worked very nicely thank you but then the next time around everything got turned on it's head and the old errors/failings come to light again.
Most un-NZ Foster-like.
Fixed. If I could go back in time, I just wanted us to basically play the gameplan we used against Ireland. Why change it if it worked against the #1 team in the world?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Strange isn't it-we proved our forwards could be as good as anyone then we didn't use that platform effectively and consistently. But we had the players, it turns out.
Yeah, it wasn't the cattle, it was the coach. Quelle surprise
Yes interesting that. Seemed to be a rather common excuse that the players weren't that good and Foster didn't have a great deal to work with.
well for some years they didn't listen to you and wouldn't play Jordie at 12...
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@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Strange isn't it-we proved our forwards could be as good as anyone then we didn't use that platform effectively and consistently. But we had the players, it turns out.
Yeah, it wasn't the cattle, it was the coach. Quelle surprise
Yes interesting that. Seemed to be a rather common excuse that the players weren't that good and Foster didn't have a great deal to work with.
There were a number of guys that were coming to the end but were still highly effective. The two locks, Smith, Mounga and to an extent BB - he seemed to have lost a step in pace and maybe that resulted in not being able to carry through with a lot of the little dinks over the top because he wasn't such an athletic freak anymore? On top of those guys you have some really strong blokes coming through who are stepping up to be the next leadership group, Save being the prime example but also the other two Barrets. Add on to that pair of out and out finishers on the wings and I'd say, cattle isn't the problem.
What you don't have is an all time great team, packed with leadership and rugby smarts a la 2015. Expectations were set very high from that time. I should know, we had similar issues post 2003.
However, an echoing what Flats said re SA, I'd struggle to see what game NZ were trying to play at times. For sure, when you got it right, it worked very nicely thank you but then the next time around everything got turned on it's head and the old errors/failings come to light again.
Most un-NZ like.
He lost pace and decisiveness and that fluky tinarse element that masked his other limitations a tad (controlling territory, fluid backline control)...
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@Kiwiwomble said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan i think in the end thats what was so frustrating...they proved they could do it...but didnt
Fuck we proved we could do it in lions 1, but that powder stayed very dry over the years. That was foster to a tee, pig headed and stubborn. When they defeated Ireland in the quarters, and all the 'aren't we awesome' shit that was coming from the coaches and players. They talked themselves up about how they realised the defence was not good enough after the Ireland series, and the genus McLeod came up with a new plan. Fuck sake the same could've been said 2017!, Why did it take so long. Ronan was talking about it when at the crusaders
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@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I think you’ve nailed it pretty much. You always expect NZ to play the most intelligent rugby, but the Saffers played smarter on the day imo. Odd, because you clearly have some intelligent players. What’s the issue? Leadership? Coaching?
I think the point everyone is missing is that South Africa were the clearest about what they were trying to do and played knock out rugby - ie they did what they needed to do to win. Take the last 10 minutes. They played as deep in NZ half as possible and hit every tackle, ruck and breakdown like their life depended on it, because thats what they needed to do.
New Zealand couldn’t do it because they haven’t spent 4 years doing it, they, like most teams, haven’t spent 4 years practicing winning the tiny moments. Ireland did, but their game is more technical, more things have to work and they didn’t get to practice the intensity of South Africa then NZ two weeks in a row very often - they tried but they were fucked at the end of the NZ game.
However many decisions went each way - and don’t kid yourself that Barnes and team only went one way, South Africa consistently reacted better. I hate that it’s true.
I've mentioned it several times, SA know what they are playing. They could play like the ended the game because they were in front. If they were behind I believe they'd have been stuffed. But they never were
Foster and Cane, and anyone else that was making decisions on the night, should have it etched onto them, "Kick your kicks, get ahead and make the saffas chase you"
you think that would help the kickers not miss?
You can't miss if you don't try
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Foster, as with Hansen circa 2019 before him, didn't seem to grasp what IMHO constitutes a winning style of rugby since the last cup. Foster's early teams played a helter skelter brand that felt like a poor imitation of the free running style that won us the cup in 2015. But it didn't work when we came up against England in Yokohama, and it won't work now. I think winning rugby for us is solid setpiece, an improved kicking game in terms of distance kicking and kick and chase, direct running in the forwards and midfield which can allow us to quickly recycle and open space to set our outside players free. Take points on offer to develop scoreboard pressure that forces our opponents into mistakes when they have to chase the game. If Razor can bring some or all of this I'll be happy
Gatland ball you mean?
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Foster, as with Hansen circa 2019 before him, didn't seem to grasp what IMHO constitutes a winning style of rugby since the last cup. Foster's early teams played a helter skelter brand that felt like a poor imitation of the free running style that won us the cup in 2015. But it didn't work when we came up against England in Yokohama, and it won't work now. I think winning rugby for us is solid setpiece, an improved kicking game in terms of distance kicking and kick and chase, direct running in the forwards and midfield which can allow us to quickly recycle and open space to set our outside players free. Take points on offer to develop scoreboard pressure that forces our opponents into mistakes when they have to chase the game. If Razor can bring some or all of this I'll be happy
Gatland ball you mean?
Whatever they call that shit we played vs Ireland
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Foster, as with Hansen circa 2019 before him, didn't seem to grasp what IMHO constitutes a winning style of rugby since the last cup. Foster's early teams played a helter skelter brand that felt like a poor imitation of the free running style that won us the cup in 2015. But it didn't work when we came up against England in Yokohama, and it won't work now. I think winning rugby for us is solid setpiece, an improved kicking game in terms of distance kicking and kick and chase, direct running in the forwards and midfield which can allow us to quickly recycle and open space to set our outside players free. Take points on offer to develop scoreboard pressure that forces our opponents into mistakes when they have to chase the game. If Razor can bring some or all of this I'll be happy
Gatland ball you mean?
Whatever they call that shit we played vs Ireland
Winning Test Rugby shit
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@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Foster, as with Hansen circa 2019 before him, didn't seem to grasp what IMHO constitutes a winning style of rugby since the last cup. Foster's early teams played a helter skelter brand that felt like a poor imitation of the free running style that won us the cup in 2015. But it didn't work when we came up against England in Yokohama, and it won't work now. I think winning rugby for us is solid setpiece, an improved kicking game in terms of distance kicking and kick and chase, direct running in the forwards and midfield which can allow us to quickly recycle and open space to set our outside players free. Take points on offer to develop scoreboard pressure that forces our opponents into mistakes when they have to chase the game. If Razor can bring some or all of this I'll be happy
Gatland ball you mean?
Whatever they call that shit we played vs Ireland
Winning Test Rugby shit
Thing is, it doesn't need to be boring. We can still express ourselves, at the right time. But we needed to exert pressure, then feed off the opposition's mistakes. I would love to be a fly on the wall during the QF debrief to see what they talked about. "Wow that percentage rugby shit worked a treat against the doolies, now lets get back to tricky shit against the Boks"
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Foster, as with Hansen circa 2019 before him, didn't seem to grasp what IMHO constitutes a winning style of rugby since the last cup. Foster's early teams played a helter skelter brand that felt like a poor imitation of the free running style that won us the cup in 2015. But it didn't work when we came up against England in Yokohama, and it won't work now. I think winning rugby for us is solid setpiece, an improved kicking game in terms of distance kicking and kick and chase, direct running in the forwards and midfield which can allow us to quickly recycle and open space to set our outside players free. Take points on offer to develop scoreboard pressure that forces our opponents into mistakes when they have to chase the game. If Razor can bring some or all of this I'll be happy
Gatland ball you mean?
Whatever they call that shit we played vs Ireland
Winning Test Rugby shit
Thing is, it doesn't need to be boring. We can still express ourselves, at the right time. But we needed to exert pressure, then feed off the opposition's mistakes. I would love to be a fly on the wall during the QF debrief to see what they talked about. "Wow that percentage rugby shit worked a treat against the doolies, now lets get back to tricky shit against the Boks"
Absolutely
When we got Gatland ball right in this RWC we carved teams up both from first phase and multi-phase play
