RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks
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@antipodean said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
This RWC cycle is a result of the late 2016 Hansen side. 8 years later, we still don't now our best 6,
Clearly Frizell based on this year.
RM was just given the 10 job this year, props late last year, centers mid to late last year, wings this year
So you're upset the selectors are picking based on form?
and who knows what the phuck the game plan is.
Really? You can't grasp the basic way they want to play?
The phuck are you on about? It's been a phucking merry go round at 10 for the last 4 years. Havili has largely been shit at 12 and was forced to go with JB due to injury.
Explain the game plan? Gary Owens from your own 22? Hope is not a game plan.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@antipodean said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Kiwiwomble said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@antipodean said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
This RWC cycle is a result of the late 2016 Hansen side. 8 years later, we still don't now our best 6,
Clearly Frizell based on this year.
pretty damning that 1.5 really good games in 28 tests over 5 years make someone a clear fav
Sure. He's hit the form we're after and I remain mystified that it's somehow the fault of the selectors no one up until this point has played well enough.
Wot? You don't think it's the selectors who are the coaches that are responsible?
No, I'm not stupid enough to think that coaches can magically turn players into Jerome Kaino. As our current forward's coach readily admits.
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@Chris-B said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Listening to Steve Devine yesterday ,
He was wondering if they are holding something back for the 1/4s ,
He thought the game was there to be won but they didn’t go for it,
In other words what he is really saying ,the tactics were so bad he is hoping they weren’t deliberate 😀
Devine was an AB so should know his stuff, but is this really a thing? Do players in that situation actually go, yeah we can win this but let's not try very hard because quarters?
Yes.
You see it every year in Super rugby. Crusaders lost 4 games this year - but, none in the play-offs.
Hmm. I reckon that's a tad different. The Saders routinely select a team of reserves for those games and roll the dice. No big deal. But this is the RWC. Did they not want to win this and "kept their powder dry" TM to just phone it in and give the appearance of trying? Were they instructed not to bother chasing the game? That would appear strange because they were pretty desperate to score at the end there.
In any case, based on the last 4 years I'm not sure what this side would suddenly have done different to win if they'd really wanted to.
I doubt it would be about not trying , it would be more about gearing their training to peak in the finals . And potentially holding things back they have been practicing and sticking to a plan a .
Exactly.
In 2011, we beat France 37-17 in Pool play and 8-7 in the Final.
Tbf that's against the French and their weird arse mindset. I also reckon that with Dan Carter the score would have been at least 20 plus. Possibly more if the French then checked out.
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@antipodean you're right but they are responsible for coming up with a gameplan to suit the players we have rather than just selecting people...telling them to be Kaino and then just wondering if they cant
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Explain the game plan? Gary Owens from your own 22? Hope is not a game plan.
of course it is....very much in the playbook as a viable option if we dont break out within a couple of phases
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@Kiwiwomble said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@antipodean you're right but they are responsible for coming up with a gameplan to suit the players we have rather than just selecting people...telling them to be Kaino and then just wondering if they cant
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Explain the game plan? Gary Owens from your own 22? Hope is not a game plan.
of course it is....very much in the playbook as a viable option if we dont break out within a couple of phases
I remain astonished people don't grasp we aren't the only nation that does contestable kicks when we aren't moving forward. There's plenty of commentary around the internet why teams do it too.
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@antipodean said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Kiwiwomble said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@antipodean you're right but they are responsible for coming up with a gameplan to suit the players we have rather than just selecting people...telling them to be Kaino and then just wondering if they cant
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Explain the game plan? Gary Owens from your own 22? Hope is not a game plan.
of course it is....very much in the playbook as a viable option if we dont break out within a couple of phases
I remain astonished people don't grasp we aren't the only nation that does contestable kicks when we aren't moving forward. There's plenty of commentary around the internet why teams do it too.
We just don't seem to do it very well most of the time. Surely we can sort out a decent kick chase? Where is the communication?
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@canefan said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
The puzzling thing is why have we departed from the physical direct game plan we used in the RC?
This is the mystery for me too. since the nadir of the Irish series, we have played really well in three “big” matches - SA in SA, England (for 60 mins), and SA in Auckland - which have all featured hard straight direct running from your forwards. In our worst losses during this period, the lack of hard straight direct running from our pack has been so noticeable - we’ve reverted to forwards taking the ball flat footed behind the gain line and taking rather than initiating contact. If I could change one thing about the way the team played on the weekend against the Boks, it would be that - this simple change would IMO make such a big difference
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@canefan said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@antipodean said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Kiwiwomble said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@antipodean you're right but they are responsible for coming up with a gameplan to suit the players we have rather than just selecting people...telling them to be Kaino and then just wondering if they cant
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Explain the game plan? Gary Owens from your own 22? Hope is not a game plan.
of course it is....very much in the playbook as a viable option if we dont break out within a couple of phases
I remain astonished people don't grasp we aren't the only nation that does contestable kicks when we aren't moving forward. There's plenty of commentary around the internet why teams do it too.
We just don't seem to do it very well most of the time. Surely we can sort out a decent kick chase? Where is the communication?
When we do communicate it, Jordan just runs into people until he's yellow carded...
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@antipodean I wonder if it was a plan for him to not contest in the air, given he is usually pretty good in the air, often regathering.
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@junior I think, surely we're going to do that in the QF, because why wouldn't you?
But, it's a massive effort to absolutely physically smack the shit out of an elite team, so I can see why we wouldn't have done it in the past two weeks.
We've certainly got to muscle up against the Boks or we'll be handed our arses in a hat - and I think that's the way to beat Ireland, as well. I have a feeling they're better at chess than us - so we need to punch them in the face!
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@Chris-B said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@canefan said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
The puzzling thing is why have we departed from the physical direct game plan we used in the RC?
Generally, I'm not much of a believer in dry powder, but against France we clearly weren't playing with the same physicality we brought vs the Boks during TRC.
In the previous game we looked like we were playing a pre-season hit-out. Way off the pace.
As Grubster says maybe we need our top team back to get to that level - or maybe we've shelved it for now. It's hard to bring that level of intensity every match.
And, frankly, I wasn't overly impressed with France - especially in the first half. I reckon they've got more gears to go through in the play-offs.
The draw has made it pretty tough for any of NZ, SA, France or Ireland to win it, but it's highly likely one of them will. Two of them will go home after the QFs - if that's us, I hope at least we play well and look like we were contenders.
SA and Ireland have it far tougher than Fra and NZ
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@chimoaus said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Not sure if its been mentioned but we had 49% of our rucks in our own half. France was 29%. The French also kicked a lot more metres. It's pretty clear the French did well exiting their half, whereas we were fucken awful.
and we dont seem to care, we play like we think we have 15 world beaters who can switch it one rather than the most basic of tasks like getting into the opposition half before fucking around to much
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@MiketheSnow Not sure about "far", but definitely "tougher".
The Jaapies couldn't afford to lose their opening pool game, so they've had to go hard from the start. That may come back to bite them.
Ireland might be able to wait and see how things unfold, a bit. If they beat SA and have a decent points advantage they might be able to take things a bit easy against Scotland and ship a close loss if necessary.
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@antipodean said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Kiwiwomble said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@antipodean you're right but they are responsible for coming up with a gameplan to suit the players we have rather than just selecting people...telling them to be Kaino and then just wondering if they cant
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Explain the game plan? Gary Owens from your own 22? Hope is not a game plan.
of course it is....very much in the playbook as a viable option if we dont break out within a couple of phases
I remain astonished people don't grasp we aren't the only nation that does contestable kicks when we aren't moving forward. There's plenty of commentary around the internet why teams do it too.
The difference compared to say South Africa is that we are shit at them - our kicks are either too long or too shallow or our kick chase just isn’t good enough, both individually and collectively. We looked so much better last week when we just hoofed it because it was obvious the Frogs had no desire to play any footy their side of halfway. Chances we will not play anyone who wants to play their side of halfway this whole tournament, so if we hoof it they will hoof it back to us and we just have to wait until they hoof it back to a position on the field we don’t mind playing from (which should be anywhere from our 10m line, not from our 22m)
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@antipodean said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@antipodean said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Kiwiwomble said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@antipodean said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
This RWC cycle is a result of the late 2016 Hansen side. 8 years later, we still don't now our best 6,
Clearly Frizell based on this year.
pretty damning that 1.5 really good games in 28 tests over 5 years make someone a clear fav
Sure. He's hit the form we're after and I remain mystified that it's somehow the fault of the selectors no one up until this point has played well enough.
Wot? You don't think it's the selectors who are the coaches that are responsible?
No, I'm not stupid enough to think that coaches can magically turn players into Jerome Kaino. As our current forward's coach readily admits.
Fozzy has had 4 years, well, 7 if you include his time as an ass.coach under Hansen. What the phuck has he been doing in that time to replace Kaino? If they're not responsible, who the phuck is???
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@Joans-Town-Jones In fairness, he's had 3 full years. 2020 was a washout.
Again, in fairness, he's been lucky to have had 3 years given what happened in 2021/2022.
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@Joans-Town-Jones He has tried Akira Ioane. Didn't work.
He tried Sowakula. Didn't work - poor selection in hindsight.
He's played Scott Barrett there. Barrett has the engine and the power game to play 6. If NZ had better locking stocks, I think he and Frizell more than cover 6 to not make it a weakness in the squad. Look at Tadhg Beirne for Ireland who is both one of the best second rows and blindsiders in the game currently. Barrett is capable of this too.
Frizell finally delivered on his potential this year.
So the real issue is lock. Nobody has come through in 4 years to put pressure on Whitelock and Retallick (apart from Barrett). Time wasted on the likes of Tuipolotu early on. Injury to Josh Lord didn't help. Vaa'i hasn't kicked on.
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@Dan54 said in RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks:
Up to a point I agree, but no way do I think ABs lost because they were keeping powder dry, just beaten by better team. As I say , at times we have to instead of just saying ABs weren't good, we should give opposition credit for being good, much as it seems a lot of us as AB fans can't do it.
Game is so structured how we play at top level add into fact that late changes seem to stuff up a little how teams play, and at top level against very good teams, off by 2% is enough to lose tests.This.
It’s bloody difficult being direct when you’re under the pump and not running at space/soft shoulders.
The ABs haven’t been able to do that at least as far back as RWC 2019.
Instead, you’ve stretched meaner packs with your outside running game and the dinky cross field kicks everyone’s moaning about now.
When that works like the 2019 QF or when the opposition have dicks for fingers (like the 2019 AB Bok RWC game or the first 20 of mt Smart) your forwards have “been direct”, running at the space against unsettled defensive lines.
But when a better pack is backed up by a backline that can deal with your backs and especially field the cross kicks, like England in the 2019 semi or the Irish in last year’s series, you don’t have the cattle to “be direct.”
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@stodders Barrett played 6 against Ireland in 2022 in the first test, didn't he? He played lock in test 2 and then was missing through injury in test 3. NZ missed him.
I don't think it was a surprise that the ABs looked better with Barrett alongside Cane and Savea in test 1. He has the work rate to play 6 well, the lineout prowess to be a bonafide option at the tail, and the power to add ballast to the scrum.
If Retallick can get back to full fitness and Whitelock can be managed through the pool, I would not be surprised to see Barrett playing 6 in the crunch games. And if he doesn't, he will be the backup to Frizell at 6 (even if starting the game in the second row).
