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All Blacks 2023

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  • Chester DrawsC Offline
    Chester DrawsC Offline
    Chester Draws
    wrote on last edited by
    #2093

    I'd say plenty of Kiwis actually play as inside centre's. Nonu, for example. SBW too. Men relying on power running as a primary weapon.

    That they couldn't play 10 at a pinch is a bit of a giveaway that they're not 5-8

    R 1 Reply Last reply
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  • R Offline
    R Offline
    reprobate
    replied to Chester Draws on last edited by
    #2094

    @Chester-Draws Nonu was a great passer of the ball, far better than e.g. Aaron Mauger who most would call a 2nd 5. SBW was just playing league. Neither are great examples.

    MN5M 1 Reply Last reply
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  • boobooB Offline
    boobooB Offline
    booboo
    wrote on last edited by
    #2095

    As it appears I have to explain MY dad joke ...

    ... the position name in NZ, being the guardians of all that is decent in rugby, is 2nd Five-Eighth.

    It does not depend on the player's style.

    It is only the more ignorant parts of the world (which is everywhere else) who refer to the 12 as any sort of "centre".

    This is the equivalent of "versing" and apostrophe abuse.

    Off to the GOM thread...

    And get back on topic the lot of you.

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  • MN5M Offline
    MN5M Offline
    MN5
    replied to reprobate on last edited by MN5
    #2096

    @reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:

    @Chester-Draws Nonu was a great passer of the ball, far better than e.g. Aaron Mauger who most would call a 2nd 5. SBW was just playing league. Neither are great examples.

    Nonu could quite literally do it all.

    Just as much a one in a generation player as DC or Richie in my opinion. He just took awhile to shake the one dimensional bulldozer stereotype cos he was very good at doing just that too.

    KiwiwombleK 1 Reply Last reply
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  • KiwiwombleK Offline
    KiwiwombleK Offline
    Kiwiwomble Banned
    replied to MN5 on last edited by
    #2097

    @MN5 glad you added the last bit, sometimes i find Nonu gets deified as if he didn't have work ons and didn't have to put in the work to become what he was towards the latter end of his AB career....he was still shit for the Highlanders though

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  • Windows97W Offline
    Windows97W Offline
    Windows97
    wrote on last edited by
    #2098

    Nonu had the strange career arc of starting out as being a fabulous super rugby player who was average for the AB's and ending his career as an average super rugby player who was fabulous for the AB's...

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  • Chester DrawsC Offline
    Chester DrawsC Offline
    Chester Draws
    wrote on last edited by
    #2099

    The slur against SBW about "just playing league" is ridiculous. He was a very good union player, and had he stayed fit, would have been a great.

    Dan Carter could do it all too. But when he played in the number 12 jersey, he was definitely a 2nd-5, not centre.

    Nonu played straight and hard. That he could also pass didn't make him a 2nd-5 -- it made him a really good inside centre. What he didn't really do was play at first receiver very much, because he wasn't very good at that. He had a good kick for a centre, but he wasn't going to exit to touch with it.

    If you think about Carter and Nonu playing the #12 jersey, what about their games was similar? Yes, both good defenders, but in very different ways. Both good runners, but in very different ways. Nonu was not a great punter. Carter not likely to crash through a hole.

    R MN5M BonesB Victor MeldrewV 4 Replies Last reply
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  • R Offline
    R Offline
    reprobate
    replied to Chester Draws on last edited by
    #2100

    @Chester-Draws Both excellent readers of the game and excellent distributors is the more important factor.
    Jordie Barrett plays more of an inside centre role than Nonu, but he can kick for touch just fine.

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  • MN5M Offline
    MN5M Offline
    MN5
    replied to Chester Draws on last edited by MN5
    #2101

    @Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 2023:

    The slur against SBW about "just playing league" is ridiculous. He was a very good union player, and had he stayed fitplaying union instead of league and boxing and not getting cards, would might have been a great.

    Dan Carter could do it all too. But when he played in the number 12 jersey, he was definitely a 2nd-5, not centre.

    Nonu played straight and hard. That he could also pass didn't make him a 2nd-5 -- it made him a really good inside centre. What he didn't really do was play at first receiver very much, because he wasn't very good at that. He had a good kick for a centre, but he wasn't going to exit to touch with it.

    If you think about Carter and Nonu playing the #12 jersey, what about their games was similar? Yes, both good defenders, but in very different ways. Both good runners, but in very different ways. Nonu was not a great punter. Carter not likely to crash through a hole.

    FIFY

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  • BonesB Online
    BonesB Online
    Bones
    replied to Chester Draws on last edited by
    #2102

    @Chester-Draws Nonu played a lot of first receiver. You're simply wrong on that part. How much did Carter play first receiver when he was playing 12?

    Carter was even used an extraordinary amount as second receiver when he was playing first five.

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  • Chester DrawsC Offline
    Chester DrawsC Offline
    Chester Draws
    wrote on last edited by
    #2103

    I have very little memory of Nonu taking exit plays, kicking for distance etc. He might have taken the ball up, but that's pure centre play.

    BonesB 1 Reply Last reply
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  • BonesB Online
    BonesB Online
    Bones
    replied to Chester Draws on last edited by
    #2104

    @Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 2023:

    I have very little memory of Nonu taking exit plays, kicking for distance etc. He might have taken the ball up, but that's pure centre play.

    First receiver doesn't just do that.

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  • Chris B.C Offline
    Chris B.C Offline
    Chris B.
    wrote on last edited by
    #2105

    The DC (2nd five) Nonu (inside centre) illustration seems pretty reasonable to me.

    1 Reply Last reply
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  • Victor MeldrewV Offline
    Victor MeldrewV Offline
    Victor Meldrew
    replied to Chester Draws on last edited by Victor Meldrew
    #2106

    @Chester-Draws

    I kinda get the distinction you are drawing between a 2nd 5/8 (playmaker) and an inside centre but Nonu turned into both an outstanding 2nd 5/8 and Inside centre

    And some of his kicking was Carter-esque

    KiwiwombleK 1 Reply Last reply
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  • KiwiwombleK Offline
    KiwiwombleK Offline
    Kiwiwomble Banned
    replied to Victor Meldrew on last edited by
    #2107

    @Victor-Meldrew thats fair but i dont think we got to see that much of it in the AB's jersey, we those AB's clips from the same season? felt like a real late development to his game...a welcome one nonetheless

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  • M Offline
    M Offline
    Machpants
    wrote on last edited by Machpants
    #2108

    I don't agree with it all, but certainly do with this bit

    Wayne Smith, Steve Hansen and Graham Henry changed the game, but it’s moved on and it feels like we are playing the same system and doing the same things that weren’t good enough to win the World Cup in 2019.

    In schoolboy rugby you find everyone has got the same pod system, the same terminology etc. We have a bit of group think with the style that started with Wayne Smith and Steve Hansen. It did fantastically but we’ve been overtaken.

    Sport, Rugby

    Taine Randell: NZ Rugby have taken their eye off the ball - NZ Herald

    Taine Randell: NZ Rugby have taken their eye off the ball - NZ Herald

    Former captain on the ABs’ stale game plan and his radical Super Rugby rescue.

    taniwharugbyT Dan54D KiwiMurphK 3 Replies Last reply
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  • taniwharugbyT Offline
    taniwharugbyT Offline
    taniwharugby
    replied to Machpants on last edited by taniwharugby
    #2109

    @Machpants yep, Mike Cron used to run scrum clinics all round the country, getting everyone on the same page, which is Good until it isn't.

    You need variety and different ideas that challenge the norm (this is where Razor shows promise) but seems for years now we have simply rested on our laurels of success and NZR have not realised we have drifted from the fast lane into the slow lane.

    S Dan54D Victor MeldrewV 3 Replies Last reply
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  • S Offline
    S Offline
    Steven Harris
    replied to taniwharugby on last edited by Steven Harris
    #2110

    @taniwharugby NZR staff were up on their travelling budget by 2.2 million dollars last year in 2022, that’s a lot of first class tickets when some of that putia could of been used to keep Mike Cron in the game ..True Story on the travel 🤦🏻‍♂️

    D 1 Reply Last reply
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  • Dan54D Offline
    Dan54D Offline
    Dan54
    replied to taniwharugby on last edited by
    #2111

    @taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:

    @Machpants yep, Mike Cron used to run scrum clinics all round the country, getting everyone on the same page, which is Good until it isn't.

    You need variety and different ideas that challenge the norm (this is where Razor shows promise) but seems for years now we have simply rested on our laurels of success and NZR have not realised we have drifted from the fast lane into the slow lane.

    I agree on using skills coaches that go all round country, to a point, as you rightly point out it can become dated as other work out how to cancel out your type of game. The thing I think we miss the most in NZ ,that we used to have, is ball skills. When you see a DMac (or RMo)25m left to right at full pace you go shit that's good, we used to have a lot could do things like that. I think NZ teams have slipped on their ability for quick short passing we used to excell at!
    The other thing is look at our U20s since probably 2016-17 we have loast our dominance because I think we loosing those skills, as well as for some reason the big boys are not really coming through, perhaps they going to basketball etc?

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  • Dan54D Offline
    Dan54D Offline
    Dan54
    replied to Machpants on last edited by
    #2112

    @Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:

    Wayne Smith, Steve Hansen and Graham Henry changed the game, but it’s moved on and it feels like we are playing the same system and doing the same things that weren’t good enough to win the World Cup in 2019.

    In schoolboy rugby you find everyone has got the same pod system, the same terminology etc. We have a bit of group think with the style that started with Wayne Smith and Steve Hansen. It did fantastically but we’ve been overtaken.

    I agree, and I think what's happened is the people who actually are coaching kids at young level too. I have wandered past a few kids training sessions, and worries me that coaches(who all do their best etc) are trying to get kids to play like they see on tv. Telling them to do this or that in certain parts of field. I think kids up to about 15-16 should be more coached on how to do things and not what to do. Just teach kids to pass, tackle, kick etc and let them find their own way of playing. I know one of problems is finding coaches who want to coach kids for sake of coaching and not to make their own son look like a pro etc for future (which a few seem to). I was watching local 1st xv play a couple of weeks back and was almightily disappointed they had a 9 that couldn't pass properly, a forward pack that never hit a breakdown bound etc. And I heard the caoch call to the 10 to stand further away to give himself more room, and the 9 couldn't get the f***en ball to him fast enough to make anything work. etc, was coaching a team on watching super rugby on tv I thought. Was chatting to man who had coached a good part of the team a few years before he was and asked him what was happening , he was gutted, had offered to perhaps help the coaches with a few things if they wanted, and was told well we like having a couple of us teachers doing it as we can have meetings during week!!

    1 Reply Last reply
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