ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?
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@antipodean said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
I think the Giteau Rule hastened the demise of the Wallabies.
I also think any serious All Black (or prospective All Black) wouldn't risk moving to an Australian franchise. Certainly NZR would be lunatics to permit such an arrangement where they have no control over the training, selection, etc. of their top tier athletes.
Most of the Wallabies that play in SR get rested for the international season due to injury too...
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@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
I'm still in the don't pick overseas players camp. Any time we discuss this I usually come to the conclusion that barely any currently overseas players will get picked anyway.
Yep as I said so am I, just think in end it will come about. I certainly don't go along with the let them play in Aus teams idea, all it does is lose control of players for no reason. The only reason I think it will ever happen is for economic reasons, and still (I reckon/hope) 10 years away.
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@Chris Yep mate but our domestic comp in reality is ITM cup (the best comp), and that is already weakened with players going and no ABs really play in it. I wish there was some way to stop ITM cup players going too.
Although super isn't really domestic comp, I agree it would/will weaken those teams if it happened, I just think not having control of players is the biggest problem, a club overseas paying their wages is going to want their pound of flesh regardless of AB's needs.
Aren't you happy we got such a well run rugby board that doesn't allow it?
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I'd have to confess that I don't really care anymore. I now only watch rugby at All Black level, so it wouldn't bother me much what happens at the pro levels below that.
Separating out whether this view is based on not liking modern rugby, or not being interested in competitions I see as compromised, is difficult. TBH.
This would have used to be something I passionately had a view on.
TBH, back in 1995, I thought it would only last 20 years based on economics. So, it's outdone that gut-feel. Although you could argue it only last about 15 years as a quality uncompromised product.
The sensible thing, to survive, would be to allow free movement in Australia SR teams. That having control of the length of the season, and the timing of the season for their players... isn't enough for NZRU. That they need more control than even that. Shows how poor a top-down controlled compromised comp I think it is.
I'm not going to passionately argue for allowing players to play for Aus SR teams, though. I don't have enough skin in the game anymore.
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Looking at an overseas players future - It would be an interesting alternate-future imaginiation task. What would we/could we get?
- Better All Blacks in key decision making roles? If involved in leagues such as Top14, Prem, URC - that are involved in 2 high stakes knock out comps per season (plus 1 with relegation). First-fives playing in countries where drop goals aren't booed.
- All Blacks playing under better coaches at domestic level? 9 out of 10 top NZ coaches aren't in NZ. Plus the ones from other countries.
- More tired/jaded All Blacks come time for our test matches.
- Probably fewer All Blacks tests per year. Actually, probably not. But some of them will be like those B team ABs that played Japan a few years ago.
- More money / spread further at NPC level (or whatever the domestic comp will be). Less churn/speed to overseas at the journeyman and youth level?
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@Rapido To be honest as you say you don't watch below AB level, so not only missing some of best rugby, but how can you then tell us that 9 out of 10 coaches are overseas? I see 16 in ITM cup and 5 in super rugby etc.
But some points are valid (as in any discussion) and the point you make about ABs in key decision making roles, you already have Chiefs sending Kaleb Trask to Japan for a year to get experience at 10 as they have plenty of cover already, so want him learning the decision making etc. I actually think it's good for more players ((and coaches) to have experience overseas and then come back to NZ.
Would like fewer tests per year, but that horse bolted with professionalism coming into game. -
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@SBW1 I think the US ones are the biggest concern right now as they are taking out our NPC players from club rugby, whereas the Europe/Japan ones have been happening for a while now and were usually ABs or Super guys in the twilight of thier careers that didnt play much, if any club rugby anyway, so is affecting the quality of the club comps.
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@SBW1 Last I remember seeing there was 500 NZers playing pro rugby overseas. Not sure of what standard, but there a hell of a lot. We tend to hear of the better NPC/ITM and above players, but there a hell of a lot of them we don't really hear about ,and heaps from just below that level, it unfortunately weakens our depth.
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@taniwharugby said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 I think the US ones are the biggest concern right now as they are taking out our NPC players from club rugby, whereas the Europe/Japan ones have been happening for a while now and were usually ABs or Super guys in the twilight of thier careers that didnt play much, if any club rugby anyway, so is affecting the quality of the club comps.
I think USA comp is keeping more people in NZ rugby though, I think we had this debate late last year? The players going to the US are usually fringe Super players (e.g. a guy like Caleb Makene) who are playing NPC and topping up their money with US contracts. I think we loose most of those players completely without the US contracts.
Like everything else in rugby now club rugby isn't the same as it what was when we were young blokes. The quality is necessarily going to be lower, but I'll trade that for keeping more players in the NPC.
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@Dan54 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris Yep mate but our domestic comp in reality is ITM cup (the best comp), and that is already weakened with players going and no ABs really play in it. I wish there was some way to stop ITM cup players going too.
Although super isn't really domestic comp, I agree it would/will weaken those teams if it happened, I just think not having control of players is the biggest problem, a club overseas paying their wages is going to want their pound of flesh regardless of AB's needs.
Aren't you happy we got such a well run rugby board that doesn't allow it? I think ITM will eventually become a glorified regional club comp.I don't see how it can be sustained at a decent level.
It is semi professional now and sliding down.
Which is a great shame its profile is slipping.It has the heart and soul of NZ rugby.
Super rugby will be were the front window is as far a competitions go and will probably expand especially with Japan eventually.
Yes the board has stuck to their guns over this issue of Abs playing overseas,I hope they stay strong. -
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@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris With the Silverlake money being injected in the game, I wonder if this could have any effect on attracting more players coming back or whether it will be more to boosting the young ones coming through.
I hope it is spread across the board,I don't know wether it will attract more players coming back,I think end of overseas contracts,Family and lifestyle will bring them back if anything,Hard to compete with the money on offer overseas.
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@Chris said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris With the Silverlake money being injected in the game, I wonder if this could have any effect on attracting more players coming back or whether it will be more to boosting the young ones coming through.
I hope it is spread across the board,I don't know wether it will attract more players coming back,I think end of overseas contracts,Family and lifestyle will bring them back if anything,Hard to compete with the money on offer overseas.
who would we want back? Use it on the future, not the now. And don't spunk it on player salaries, spend it on infrastructure and pathways.
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@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@taniwharugby said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 I think the US ones are the biggest concern right now as they are taking out our NPC players from club rugby, whereas the Europe/Japan ones have been happening for a while now and were usually ABs or Super guys in the twilight of thier careers that didnt play much, if any club rugby anyway, so is affecting the quality of the club comps.
I think USA comp is keeping more people in NZ rugby though, I think we had this debate late last year? The players going to the US are usually fringe Super players (e.g. a guy like Caleb Makene) who are playing NPC and topping up their money with US contracts. I think we loose most of those players completely without the US contracts.
Like everything else in rugby now club rugby isn't the same as it what was when we were young blokes. The quality is necessarily going to be lower, but I'll trade that for keeping more players in the NPC.
The danger for NZ is how big will the USA comp get will it become another Japanese league, money wise eventually.
Then we will be fighting off another comp after the top 50 players in NZ,Not the players underneath as of now.
I see it as keeping our players in NZ atm although it will weaken SR if there are a lot on injuries.The Future of the USA comp worries me. -
@Chris As long as the MLR finishes before the NPC starts, NZ players can play both MLR and NPC. I don't understand the pessimism. I expect most players to return to NZ, especially those who still want to try earning a SR contract.
I don't think the MLR is competing with SR franchises for the better players (the top 190-210 players in NZ, depending on whether you include Moana Pasifika). The level of the game in the MLR is just too low and I can't see that changing in the near future.
Edited to add that I expect the US comp to introduce caps on foreign players at some point, just like the Japanese comp. The US has been awarded the organisation of a World Cup and they'll want their team to be competitive, especially after missing qualification for the RWC2023. They'll want to improve their player development and you can't do that if not enough players get to play MLR due to so many foreign players.
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@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Dan54 Love to get the stats on where Kiwis are plying their trade for overseas clubs. Must be a significant number in US now. Even the Aussie super clubs and Drua have a significant Kiwi presence in coaching and player.
Around 90 nz origin players signed up for MLR last year. Some were short term. Over 100 with Japanese clubs.
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@ARHS said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Dan54 Love to get the stats on where Kiwis are plying their trade for overseas clubs. Must be a significant number in US now. Even the Aussie super clubs and Drua have a significant Kiwi presence in coaching and player.
Around 90 nz origin players signed up for MLR last year. Some were short term. Over 100 with Japanese clubs.
Heaps playing in places like Spain and Portugal to
