ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?
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@SBW1 Last I remember seeing there was 500 NZers playing pro rugby overseas. Not sure of what standard, but there a hell of a lot. We tend to hear of the better NPC/ITM and above players, but there a hell of a lot of them we don't really hear about ,and heaps from just below that level, it unfortunately weakens our depth.
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@taniwharugby said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 I think the US ones are the biggest concern right now as they are taking out our NPC players from club rugby, whereas the Europe/Japan ones have been happening for a while now and were usually ABs or Super guys in the twilight of thier careers that didnt play much, if any club rugby anyway, so is affecting the quality of the club comps.
I think USA comp is keeping more people in NZ rugby though, I think we had this debate late last year? The players going to the US are usually fringe Super players (e.g. a guy like Caleb Makene) who are playing NPC and topping up their money with US contracts. I think we loose most of those players completely without the US contracts.
Like everything else in rugby now club rugby isn't the same as it what was when we were young blokes. The quality is necessarily going to be lower, but I'll trade that for keeping more players in the NPC.
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@Dan54 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris Yep mate but our domestic comp in reality is ITM cup (the best comp), and that is already weakened with players going and no ABs really play in it. I wish there was some way to stop ITM cup players going too.
Although super isn't really domestic comp, I agree it would/will weaken those teams if it happened, I just think not having control of players is the biggest problem, a club overseas paying their wages is going to want their pound of flesh regardless of AB's needs.
Aren't you happy we got such a well run rugby board that doesn't allow it?
I think ITM will eventually become a glorified regional club comp.I don't see how it can be sustained at a decent level.
It is semi professional now and sliding down.
Which is a great shame its profile is slipping.It has the heart and soul of NZ rugby.
Super rugby will be were the front window is as far a competitions go and will probably expand especially with Japan eventually.
Yes the board has stuck to their guns over this issue of Abs playing overseas,I hope they stay strong. -
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@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris With the Silverlake money being injected in the game, I wonder if this could have any effect on attracting more players coming back or whether it will be more to boosting the young ones coming through.
I hope it is spread across the board,I don't know wether it will attract more players coming back,I think end of overseas contracts,Family and lifestyle will bring them back if anything,Hard to compete with the money on offer overseas.
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@Chris said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris With the Silverlake money being injected in the game, I wonder if this could have any effect on attracting more players coming back or whether it will be more to boosting the young ones coming through.
I hope it is spread across the board,I don't know wether it will attract more players coming back,I think end of overseas contracts,Family and lifestyle will bring them back if anything,Hard to compete with the money on offer overseas.
who would we want back? Use it on the future, not the now. And don't spunk it on player salaries, spend it on infrastructure and pathways.
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@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@taniwharugby said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 I think the US ones are the biggest concern right now as they are taking out our NPC players from club rugby, whereas the Europe/Japan ones have been happening for a while now and were usually ABs or Super guys in the twilight of thier careers that didnt play much, if any club rugby anyway, so is affecting the quality of the club comps.
I think USA comp is keeping more people in NZ rugby though, I think we had this debate late last year? The players going to the US are usually fringe Super players (e.g. a guy like Caleb Makene) who are playing NPC and topping up their money with US contracts. I think we loose most of those players completely without the US contracts.
Like everything else in rugby now club rugby isn't the same as it what was when we were young blokes. The quality is necessarily going to be lower, but I'll trade that for keeping more players in the NPC.
The danger for NZ is how big will the USA comp get will it become another Japanese league, money wise eventually.
Then we will be fighting off another comp after the top 50 players in NZ,Not the players underneath as of now.
I see it as keeping our players in NZ atm although it will weaken SR if there are a lot on injuries.The Future of the USA comp worries me. -
@Chris As long as the MLR finishes before the NPC starts, NZ players can play both MLR and NPC. I don't understand the pessimism. I expect most players to return to NZ, especially those who still want to try earning a SR contract.
I don't think the MLR is competing with SR franchises for the better players (the top 190-210 players in NZ, depending on whether you include Moana Pasifika). The level of the game in the MLR is just too low and I can't see that changing in the near future.
Edited to add that I expect the US comp to introduce caps on foreign players at some point, just like the Japanese comp. The US has been awarded the organisation of a World Cup and they'll want their team to be competitive, especially after missing qualification for the RWC2023. They'll want to improve their player development and you can't do that if not enough players get to play MLR due to so many foreign players.
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@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Dan54 Love to get the stats on where Kiwis are plying their trade for overseas clubs. Must be a significant number in US now. Even the Aussie super clubs and Drua have a significant Kiwi presence in coaching and player.
Around 90 nz origin players signed up for MLR last year. Some were short term. Over 100 with Japanese clubs.
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@ARHS said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Dan54 Love to get the stats on where Kiwis are plying their trade for overseas clubs. Must be a significant number in US now. Even the Aussie super clubs and Drua have a significant Kiwi presence in coaching and player.
Around 90 nz origin players signed up for MLR last year. Some were short term. Over 100 with Japanese clubs.
Heaps playing in places like Spain and Portugal to
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@mariner4life said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris With the Silverlake money being injected in the game, I wonder if this could have any effect on attracting more players coming back or whether it will be more to boosting the young ones coming through.
I hope it is spread across the board,I don't know wether it will attract more players coming back,I think end of overseas contracts,Family and lifestyle will bring them back if anything,Hard to compete with the money on offer overseas.
who would we want back? Use it on the future, not the now. And don't spunk it on player salaries, spend it on infrastructure and pathways.
No one I would want back,Just commenting on what would bring them. back.
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@ARHS said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Dan54 Love to get the stats on where Kiwis are plying their trade for overseas clubs. Must be a significant number in US now. Even the Aussie super clubs and Drua have a significant Kiwi presence in coaching and player.
Around 90 nz origin players signed up for MLR last year. Some were short term. Over 100 with Japanese clubs.
Funnilyenough Japanese rugby not too bad for ITM cup players, as they can/do play both when they want, haven't checked but MLR maybe same? I know Jesse Parete for the Naki has been in Japan and still plays in ITM cup, a couple of years back he played the last 3 club games too. To be honest a lot of players actually go overseas not just for coin but for lifestyle change like the young fellas that do the old OE. MLR isn't enough cash to attract Super players, just Japan and Europe I think.
Whoops sorry to Stargazer, just realised I have said same as you after I had already replied.
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@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris With the Silverlake money being injected in the game, I wonder if this could have any effect on attracting more players coming back or whether it will be more to boosting the young ones coming through.
Silverlake money that is going to provinces has been more or less gone with a proviso it's to boost club/lower grade rugby, and not really to be spent on player salaries. I assume at top level it will pad test players pay, but they pretty firm on it not getting wasted. And rightfully so to I reckon.
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So, how long before the NZRU fold on the overseas player rule? IMO, I think the winds are blowing that way. If mismanaged it will have profound impacts on NZ rugby. But NZ rugby is suffering death by a thousand cuts.
Japan is the key for me. A good number of the top Boks are playing there. If ABs see the Bok physicality as the benchmark, mixing with these players in Japan will be of benefit to NZ players.
I know there are drop offs for NZ players when returning to NZ from Japan. However, the more top players are drawn there, the less this will be the case.
The question will be what will the NZ competitions become if the top players don’t play in NZ that much, if at all, outside of the test windows? Would NZ fans accept such a huge change if it meant the ABs returned to the top of the tree by having their best players available to select from at all times?
Tricky times await
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@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
So, how long before the NZRU fold on the overseas player rule? IMO, I think the winds are blowing that way. If mismanaged it will have profound impacts on NZ rugby. But NZ rugby is suffering death by a thousand cuts.
Japan is the key for me. A good number of the top Boks are playing there. If ABs see the Bok physicality as the benchmark, mixing with these players in Japan will be of benefit to NZ players.
I know there are drop offs for NZ players when returning to NZ from Japan. However, the more top players are drawn there, the less this will be the case.
The question will be what will the NZ competitions become if the top players don’t play in NZ that much, if at all, outside of the test windows? Would NZ fans accept such a huge change if it meant the ABs returned to the top of the tree by having their best players available to select from at all times?
Tricky times await
Up to now, there would only really be a few overseas players that would enhance an ABs squad.
If we did change the eligibility criteria, I hope it would be for a couple of spots in an AB squad and not make it open season to be selected from anywhere.
So in the current squad we could have called in Mounga and Retellick for example. That’s it.
A slight tweak doesn’t have to mean that players leave en masse
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@DaGrubster Retallick, Frizell, Mo'unga, TKB, Smith, Sopoaga. Someone like Pita Ahki would have probably represented NZ rather than choosing Tonga.
There aren't that many top names plying their trade abroad, but looking at the above, you could form a pretty strong, experienced bench who could score at least 3 points in the last 20 mins
