All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?
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@Magpie_in_aus said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
What about a utility like Jackson Garden-Bachop. Can play first five and front row.
I think Scots College might have tried those two combinations using both JGB and Alex Fidow. Loosehead and tighthead as well as first and second five respectively as well only to find out neither were suited in either position!
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
Richie Mo'unga is probably the worst case of the late Hansen and Foster era lost generation of All Blacks - players chronically mismanaged and mucked around with to the point they have not been able to consistently perform to their potential on the international stage.
It's not often you see a player so actively disadvantaged & undermined by tactics, selection and team management but it feels like that is what we have had with Mo'unga's handling over the last five years.
Mo'unga's career started with Hansen actively talking his performances down and clearly reluctant to move away from his preferred Barrett. If this is the end of Mo'unga in Black, hopefully he gets 12 months with the trust and freedom to run things himself unimpeded. If he does, I think we will realize what the AB management has wasted for the last five years and what we will miss in future.
Mo'unga has still shone but so much of his career he has been undermined by selection, tactics and dual playmakers. As Mo'unga has sadly found out time and time again, It’s pretty tough to drive a car when an overbearing passenger keeps clutching at the steering wheel from the back.
Hopefully he can have a great next twelve months in black and who knows, we may see him back on his return under a different coaching regime.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him.
Richie Mo'unga's international career has been a 'how to' of not instilling any confidence or trust in a talented player, while also actively impeding him with tactics that don't suit his game.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him.
Richie Mo'unga's international career has been a 'how to' of not instilling any confidence or trust in a talented player, while also actively impeding him with tactics that don't suit his game.
Do you want to back that up or is it just a thought?
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Some stats for RM
44 tests
30 wins
11 losses
3 draws:30 starts: 22 wins 3 draws 5 losses
14 as sub: 8 wins, 6 lossesIf ever there has been a guy given plenty of chances but being very hot and cold it has been him.
I dont get the blame directed at a dual playmaker system. Mostly he has subbed on and off with BB.He has never fund his rhythm in test rugby. Partly because he had to keep shuffling away from the tackle zone in early days then not stringing performances together in latter ones. His kicking from hand can be good some days and awful in others. To me that is why he isn't confident. He doesn't trust his own option taking.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
It’s also disappointing that Mounga requires a coach to create a gameplan to get the best out of him.
Richie Mo'unga's international career has been a 'how to' of not instilling any confidence or trust in a talented player, while also actively impeding him with tactics that don't suit his game.
So are you suggesting RMo shouldn't of been picked because he only has one type of play? Or that he is so good you select a team to suit his style?
I not sure what the answer is myself, I think he best option at 10, but suspect it not a position we strong in. -
Richie Mounga's strengths are perfectly suited to Super Rugby where he absolutely carves and has been the best player in Super Rugby.
Those same strengths don't suit test match footy so much. He's never been a player that drives a team around the field with his boot. There's very few players in NZ that do currently.
Hopefully with his future finalised in his last test season he goes out with a bang and dominates.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
He's never been a player that drives a team around the field with his boot. There's very few players in NZ that do currently.
Jordie Barrett, Sam Gilbert & Zarn Sullivan.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
This is the hammer and nail really, and why he goes missing for large periods against the top sides. He's always stationing himself a bit wider looking for mismatches that just don't exist, and the ABs really suffer as a result because the bloke that's meant to be directing play hasn't touched the ball for 4 phases. It's little wonder Beauden has inserted himself at first receiver when that happens. That's just the way he plays, and my criticism of the coaches would be they allowed him to do that too much because he had success with it at Super level.
Outside of that there's not a lot to his game. His kicking game became a bit of a myth when Beauden was starting, but we've seen this year that it's not up to scratch at test level. Defensively he's improved but is still a weak point. I've said in the past that I think his best position for the ABs is from the bench where we can better utilise his strengths against tiring defenders. Unfortunately Beauden's form went downhill this year which meant he has had to start. An in-form Beauden would really help our chances at the RWC, but given his age I don't think we'll get that.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
Richie Mo'unga is probably the worst case of the late Hansen and Foster era lost generation of All Blacks - players chronically mismanaged and mucked around with to the point they have not been able to consistently perform to their potential on the international stage.
It's not often you see a player so actively disadvantaged & undermined by tactics, selection and team management but it feels like that is what we have had with Mo'unga's handling over the last five years.
Mo'unga's career started with Hansen actively talking his performances down and clearly reluctant to move away from his preferred Barrett. If this is the end of Mo'unga in Black, hopefully he gets 12 months with the trust and freedom to run things himself unimpeded. If he does, I think we will realize what the AB management has wasted for the last five years and what we will miss in future.
Mo'unga has still shone but so much of his career he has been undermined by selection, tactics and dual playmakers. As Mo'unga has sadly found out time and time again, It’s pretty tough to drive a car when an overbearing passenger keeps clutching at the steering wheel from the back.
Hopefully he can have a great next twelve months in black and who knows, we may see him back on his return under a different coaching regime.
It feels strange to say this about a 100-test AB, but I wonder if BB has been a net negative for the team since 2016 when he took over running the cutter. That is, to fit his freakish skills into the team, and indeed to give him as many opportunities as possible to exploit them during that period, we may have sidelined players better suited to the overall on field management of the team, such Cruden and then Mounga.
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@junior said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
Richie Mo'unga is probably the worst case of the late Hansen and Foster era lost generation of All Blacks - players chronically mismanaged and mucked around with to the point they have not been able to consistently perform to their potential on the international stage.
It's not often you see a player so actively disadvantaged & undermined by tactics, selection and team management but it feels like that is what we have had with Mo'unga's handling over the last five years.
Mo'unga's career started with Hansen actively talking his performances down and clearly reluctant to move away from his preferred Barrett. If this is the end of Mo'unga in Black, hopefully he gets 12 months with the trust and freedom to run things himself unimpeded. If he does, I think we will realize what the AB management has wasted for the last five years and what we will miss in future.
Mo'unga has still shone but so much of his career he has been undermined by selection, tactics and dual playmakers. As Mo'unga has sadly found out time and time again, It’s pretty tough to drive a car when an overbearing passenger keeps clutching at the steering wheel from the back.
Hopefully he can have a great next twelve months in black and who knows, we may see him back on his return under a different coaching regime.
It feels strange to say this about a 100-test AB, but I wonder if BB has been a net negative for the team since 2016 when he took over running the cutter. That is, to fit his freakish skills into the team, and indeed to give him as many opportunities as possible to exploit them during that period, we may have sidelined players better suited to the overall on field management of the team, such Cruden and then Mounga.
Very interesting but hard to tell even in retrospect.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
It feels strange to say this about a 100-test AB, but I wonder if BB has been a net negative for the team since 2016 when he took over running the cutter. That is, to fit his freakish skills into the team, and indeed to give him as many opportunities as possible to exploit them during that period, we may have sidelined players better suited to the overall on field management of the team, such Cruden and then Mounga.
Very interesting but hard to tell even in retrospect.
I said it from the start, so for me it isn't in retrospect. I have never rated Beauden Barrett as 1st-5, and always thought he was world class as fullback.
Lots of his coaches seemed to agree to, keeping him at fullback even as he pleaded to be moved to #10. When he has been allowed to play #10, the results for his sides have not been spectacular, for a guy twice world player of the year. Compare that to the way Aaron Cruden, never world player of the year, could absolutely ignite a backline.
I remember watching a Chiefs vs Hurricanes game in the pouring rain, and my only concern was that BB would carve up, as I was sure our forwards would otherwise win. The Chiefs kept him in check until he fell back in one move, got the ball in open space from a kick and proceeded to open up the Chiefs. Since then I have seen the same thing many times -- BB does nothing, until he falls back and has space, and then everyone says how wonderful he is. Which is true, but only when he isn't playing first receiver.
Our back play is just no good when BB starts at 10. It has improved out of sight this year without him. That's not to say RM is the answer, just that the other backs have started to look better once he plays.
Regarding the original post, who to play AB #10, I would go with someone who can kick, pass and tackle that you can build a game plan around. Ignore the desire to have a running #10 if that brings the core skills down. I wonder if a modern day Grant Fox would even get a look in with modern NZ teams, who would dismiss him because he couldn't run.
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Seems to be a lot of over thinking on the impact of coaches.
To me Super rugby is quite different to NH rugby and test rugby and builds the instincts our AB's play with. A player in a strong super team can get away with inaccuracies and weaknesses when he adds flair and scoring opportunities to get the bonus points. The deeper analysis and game plan at test level doesn't allow the same balance. Seems like a challenge to transition for 10s.
Not too many 10s lauded as match controlling generals at test level currently. Maybe only Sexton and Ntamack.
Neither Mounga or Barrett have had to consistently assume match control with their positional kicking at super level. I think it is as simple as that in assessing our high expectations of them. Not so easy for the AB's without regular scrumming for penalties to kick into the corner and maul for a try.
It will be interesting to see where NZ heads at 10 beyond RWC regardless of the coach. Will it be a Bryn Gatland type to play a Sexton type game or will it be a Perofeta or McKenzie type who poses more threats at super level? Or will one of the young 10s get moulded along Sexton or Carter lines at Super level to satisfy AB needs?
Sorry to see Frizzell going too. Like many others including Mounga I think he copes too much negative press. We are well served by the best we have. It is just that the rest of the world has caught up. -
It seems the less Perofeta plays at 10, the better he is considered to be at 10.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
It seems the less Perofeta plays at 10, the better he is considered to be at 10.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder, or something
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@Machpants DMac arguably emerged from his time with development squad as our form No.10. How high is Fergus Burke in the pecking order, he is sure to feature a lot more for the Saders in 23, as RM is likely to be rested for a good portion of the Super season.
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
It feels strange to say this about a 100-test AB, but I wonder if BB has been a net negative for the team since 2016 when he took over running the cutter. That is, to fit his freakish skills into the team, and indeed to give him as many opportunities as possible to exploit them during that period, we may have sidelined players better suited to the overall on field management of the team, such Cruden and then Mounga.
Very interesting but hard to tell even in retrospect.
I said it from the start, so for me it isn't in retrospect. I have never rated Beauden Barrett as 1st-5, and always thought he was world class as fullback.
Lots of his coaches seemed to agree to, keeping him at fullback even as he pleaded to be moved to #10. When he has been allowed to play #10, the results for his sides have not been spectacular, for a guy twice world player of the year. Compare that to the way Aaron Cruden, never world player of the year, could absolutely ignite a backline.
I remember watching a Chiefs vs Hurricanes game in the pouring rain, and my only concern was that BB would carve up, as I was sure our forwards would otherwise win. The Chiefs kept him in check until he fell back in one move, got the ball in open space from a kick and proceeded to open up the Chiefs. Since then I have seen the same thing many times -- BB does nothing, until he falls back and has space, and then everyone says how wonderful he is. Which is true, but only when he isn't playing first receiver.
Our back play is just no good when BB starts at 10. It has improved out of sight this year without him. That's not to say RM is the answer, just that the other backs have started to look better once he plays.
Regarding the original post, who to play AB #10, I would go with someone who can kick, pass and tackle that you can build a game plan around. Ignore the desire to have a running #10 if that brings the core skills down. I wonder if a modern day Grant Fox would even get a look in with modern NZ teams, who would dismiss him because he couldn't run.
I meant it is hard to judge with proof - not saying you changed your mind or only just started mentioning this...overall I agree with what you say..
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@ARHS said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
Seems to be a lot of over thinking on the impact of coaches.
To me Super rugby is quite different to NH rugby and test rugby and builds the instincts our AB's play with. A player in a strong super team can get away with inaccuracies and weaknesses when he adds flair and scoring opportunities to get the bonus points. The deeper analysis and game plan at test level doesn't allow the same balance. Seems like a challenge to transition for 10s.
Not too many 10s lauded as match controlling generals at test level currently. Maybe only Sexton and Ntamack.
Neither Mounga or Barrett have had to consistently assume match control with their positional kicking at super level. I think it is as simple as that in assessing our high expectations of them. Not so easy for the AB's without regular scrumming for penalties to kick into the corner and maul for a try.
It will be interesting to see where NZ heads at 10 beyond RWC regardless of the coach. Will it be a Bryn Gatland type to play a Sexton type game or will it be a Perofeta or McKenzie type who poses more threats at super level? Or will one of the young 10s get moulded along Sexton or Carter lines at Super level to satisfy AB needs?
Sorry to see Frizzell going too. Like many others including Mounga I think he copes too much negative press. We are well served by the best we have. It is just that the rest of the world has caught up.Hard to say how much I agree with this post. Bang on.
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After watching DMac play for the All Blacks XV & the following Barbarian's games he is head and shoulders our best option. He's always had the potential to thrive as a pivot & it's clear that his game maturity has really skyrocketed in the last 3 seasons.
I've long insisted that 10 was the position to unlock his potential (he doesn't have the size & necessary attributes for an elite fullback) and his recent performances for ABs XV & Barbarians at 10 have confirmed that. His passing selection is unreal & his kicking out of hand looks to have improved considerably. His game management is arguably better than Mo'unga & Barrett at the moment.
Add that to his broken field running, consistent goal kicking & his no fear approach to defense, I reckon he'll be our 10 for the next cycle.
He's coming into his prime tactically, he's now a really intelligent player at 10, I'm excited to see how it plays out.
