All Blacks vs Scotland
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Hmmm a lot of negativity on here, having finally gotten round to watching the game, I see more positives than negatives.
I think personally we're heading in the right direction, sure, there were some below par performances, but at least we now have a clear idea on what our top side is now (unlike 2019), and for those saying we need to build depth, we have plenty of it imo.
Thought the forwards went well, with the clear standouts being Ardie, Papali'i and Scott Barrett. Whitelock put in his usual sold shift as did Taukeiaho and I know people keep moaning about a lack of 6, I think Akira and Frizzell are doing a good job. People need to get over the fact that we don't have anyone as dominant as Kaino anymore and need to make do with what we have. I prefer Frizzell starting with Akira off the bench but am happy with whatever the coaches decide on that one.
The backs were a bit rusty out there but at the same time, we know what our starting backline is going forward so on the positive side, at least the got a run together, so if they are needed, they can jump in next year if need be. We'll done to Telea on his two tries on debut and maybe it was reading this thread thinking that Clarke had an absolute disaster, and yes, I'm not saying he was great or anything, but I was expecting a lot worse.
The bench was brilliant it must be said, punishing a tiring Scottish team. Perenara, Taylor and Frizzell were especially good. Well done to Taylor who has copped plenty of criticism this year, and also Perenara, who has thrown his name in the hat for a recall next year.
I'm not saying we're the finished article, but I think as a team, we're slowly starting to understand Schmidt's gameplan a bit better and as I said earlier, at least we know what our starting side will look like. I'm still doubtful about McLeod's defensive system as just like the Japanese did, the Scots also managed to get around us with relative ease. I would have had him gone with Mooar and Plumtree personally as despite him being there for so long, we still manage to get beaten out wide as has happened all year. Our loosies have improved as a unit as the year has gone on, but we still look a bit lost in the backs, especially off line out ball where teams use the extra space to create mismatches. I put that down to McLeod personally, and its one of our big worries heading into world cup year imo.
Still, we got the win with a half strength side out there and showed a bit of character out there after getting outplayed for large periods of the game.
I get all that. But discipline for a Schmidt team was appalling. So many penalties. Won’t be winning big matches with those penalty stats.
What's disappointing is listening to experienced Test players saying they need to learn not to give the opposition a hand down the pitch by giving away penalties.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones i think he drifted too wide, if the outside defender keeps holding off the tackle then he should have straightened and forced the wide man to commit. if he doesn't then he had a chance to break the line...if he does you can make the pass to BB in space....holding and drifting caused the problems
Not only that, he jogged to ensure the Scottish defenders could make it across in time. He basically did everything wrong he could.
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@antipodean yeah, trotting back after the intercept really bugged me...obviously not making a mistake it prefered....but if you do you do everything to make up for it
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@antipodean yeah, trotting back after the intercept really bugged me...obviously not making a mistake it prefered....but if you do you do everything to make up for it
The jogging back after gifting the opposition a try is just more evidence for my DH is the back version of Frizzell theory.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones i think he drifted too wide, if the outside defender keeps holding off the tackle then he should have straightened and forced the wide man to commit. if he doesn't then he had a chance to break the line...if he does you can make the pass to BB in space....holding and drifting caused the problems
I don't disagree. But he was in a good position to pass/offload to BB. The gap was wiiiide, if he accelerated just a touch he gets around the defender. What I'm saying is he couldn't have done 3 or 4 different things to put BB away yet executed so poorly and as you say, went for a stroll after.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@antipodean yeah, trotting back after the intercept really bugged me...obviously not making a mistake it prefered....but if you do you do everything to make up for it
Yep. Usually it is instinctive to do so as well.
One thing you'll always see with DMac (probably because he has lots of practice ) is when he makes a mistake he goes hard to try and fix it or make something good happen to counteract it. -
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rapido said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
ALB would have done better to have tripped over his own laces.
If only it was Clarke chasing!
Like you I originally thought the ball had beaten Hogg, but then the replays showed how massively deep the in goal is and Hogg had already started to stop. I reckon he probably could have stopped and dived back, just beating Jordie.
It doesn't excuse the ref arrogantly ignoring opening up the gap for Hogg by blocking DP and then saying it had no effect.
To give Hogg credit, it looked to me like he manipulated that situation by running that line past the ref on purpose. Clever play.
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This post is deleted!
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I've hesitated responding to the criticism thrown at DH, because I'll get accused of bias again, but I'm doing it anyway because I have as much the right to say what I think about things as anyone else.
I've watched that intercept try over and over again and I see Havili chasing. Not fast enough, but there are various possible explanations for that. Havili always has a high work rate, so it wasn't laziness.
The most obvious explanation is that Darcy Graham had a considerable head start (Havili had to turn around first before chasing) and Havili knew he wasn't fast enough to catch him, combined with the knowledge that Graham was covered by Clarke with his far greater speed, who obviously should have tackled him. I don't think you can blame it on DH that he trusted Clarke to make the tackle.
He may also have seen Jordie coming in at full speed and he may have thought that Jordie had Graham covered too (Jordie almost had him!) and he wanted to avoid a collision with Jordie.DH can be rightfully criticised for mis-timing his pass to BB, but attacking him for chasing too slowly is laughable if you don't take into account the context.
Maybe for some perspective: DH also made the second-highest number of tackles (11) in 58 minutes, while Paps (13) and Whitelock (also 11) made theirs in the full 80. Apart from that intercept pass, he wasn't playing badly at all.
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@Stargazer Well, yes you are entitled to your opinion....as am I.
Look at the picture below, DH is within a couple of metres of Clarke. They both have to turn and run down the player, Clarke did well to react quickly and even be in a position to tackle. Yes, he should have done better but he certainly made more of an effort than DH ambling back.
Jodie got badly stepped too, try is stil DH's fault
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you can sugar coat all you want (the not tracking back after the intercept thing is rubbish I'll give you) but that was a very ordinary game from DH. The intercept was fucking terrible. His first touch was a cross-field kick that went backwards (that Telea rescued for him).
I am not giving a test match 12 credit for making front on tackles against what was a pretty limited attack.
He offered zero in attack, contributing absolutely nothing. And not for the first time this year either. And there was a noticeable improvement made when he was deservedly hooked.
It was a very very ordinary day out, and another piece of evidence that he is nothing but a placeholder at this level. A serviceable guy to call on if everyone else is out. He's not strong enough, nor quick enough, nor accurate enough on attack (seriously, some of his kicking this year has been very wayward, and that is supposed to be a strength).
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@Kirwan Stills are misleading, not to mention that it was zoomed in. Tele lens always distorts the actual distances. Also, Clarke was behind them both, so had fewer metres to run back. And he's a sprinter with far bigger speed. That's why he's playing on the wing.
Havili did run to the try line instead of directly to Graham, where Jordie was, to try cutting of Graham's path to the posts. That would have been more clear with a different camera angle but from a defence point of view that wasn't the wrong thing to do.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The most obvious explanation is that Darcy Graham had a considerable head start (Havili had to turn around first before chasing) and Havili knew he wasn't fast enough to catch him, combined with the knowledge that Graham was covered by Clarke with his far greater speed, who obviously should have tackled him. I don't think you can blame it on DH that he trusted Clarke to make the tackle.
He may also have seen Jordie coming in at full speed and he may have thought that Jordie had Graham covered too (Jordie almost had him!) and he wanted to avoid a collision with Jordie.thats actually some pretty poor excuses, "someone else" will get there first? what of he shrugs of the tackle but was slowed down? what if they both go down in a tackle...we dont want people over the ball? what if a ruck forms....we dont want people back in the line fast?
looks at it again and there are 4 fatties that are getting back quicker as well as getting across from their midfield pod
he thought that was a try the second it went to hand and gave up
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@mariner4life No one is arguing that Jordie is the best 12 we have; he is. No one is arguing DH had a great game. He just wasn't as bad as people are saying. If he wasn't offering much on attack, that had a lot to do with the two players inside him. Outside Smith and Mo'unga, Havili has been good this year. Oh, and you need your placeholders (which I translate into back-ups).
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@mariner4life No one is arguing that Jordie is the best 12 we have; he is. No one is arguing DH had a great game. He just wasn't as bad as people are saying. If he wasn't offering much on attack, that had a lot to do with the two players inside him. Outside Smith and Mo'unga, Havili has been good this year. Oh, and you need your placeholders (which I translate into back-ups).
Look, that spot as a placeholder puts him in the top 25% of players in the country. That makes him actually really fucking good at rugby
But there is no way i am going to excuse a guy if the 2 players inside and the 1 outside is right. that's called a liability.
And "good" is probably not the word i would use, adequate is probably closer.
He's your boy, so i would expect you to go to the trenches for him, and this isn't me having a go. I just have a very different opinion of his spot.
At this stage he would be lucky to make my RWC squad (though i care less about that than some).
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
you can sugar coat all you want (the not tracking back after the intercept thing is rubbish I'll give you) but that was a very ordinary game from DH. The intercept was fucking terrible. His first touch was a cross-field kick that went backwards (that Telea rescued for him).
I am not giving a test match 12 credit for making front on tackles against what was a pretty limited attack.
He offered zero in attack, contributing absolutely nothing. And not for the first time this year either. And there was a noticeable improvement made when he was deservedly hooked.
It was a very very ordinary day out, and another piece of evidence that he is nothing but a placeholder at this level. A serviceable guy to call on if everyone else is out. He's not strong enough, nor quick enough, nor accurate enough on attack (seriously, some of his kicking this year has been very wayward, and that is supposed to be a strength).
I think for about 5-10 mins before he was yanked he started running straight and hard at the line. Looked alright then.
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@JC said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rapido said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
ALB would have done better to have tripped over his own laces.
If only it was Clarke chasing!
Like you I originally thought the ball had beaten Hogg, but then the replays showed how massively deep the in goal is and Hogg had already started to stop. I reckon he probably could have stopped and dived back, just beating Jordie.
It doesn't excuse the ref arrogantly ignoring opening up the gap for Hogg by blocking DP and then saying it had no effect.
To give Hogg credit, it looked to me like he manipulated that situation by running that line past the ref on purpose. Clever play.
No doubt about it - I'm surprised they didn't use it more after it became clear the ref was going to do actual blocking for them, when all they would have been hoping for was a distraction!
