All Blacks vs Scotland
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
am beginning to like the way they use him and Taylor
I'm not. They've only got it right once.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
You want more time developing a backup than a starter? Fucking mindless.
It's not binary. Try actually reading what I wrote rather than throwing your toys out of the pam because I don't agree with you.
Its exactly what you said, pam.
You have to be seriously lacking in basic comprehension skills if you think my view that we need to develop Jordie and provide a reasonable backup option if Jordie gets injured, equates to me arguing for developing the backup option over Jordie as a starting 12.
Your literal argument is we need to develop backups for JB. How do we sufficiently do that without sacrificing JBs time at 12 in the next 10 tests? Again, we don't have 20-30 tests. We have 10. Perhaps you can't comprehend your own argument.
Well at least you've stopped putting words in my mouth.....
But yeah, time's short so let's give JB all the game time we can and make him play 80 minutes each game as there's zero risk he might get injured and he'll always be 100% fit and raring to go every Test until the end of RWC2023.
Sounds like a well thought out plan.
DC got injured in training. The both of them. Do you want them to stop training?
Are you now arguing that Jordie should play 80 minutes of every game until the end of the RWC, but to mitigate risk of a training injury, you don't want him to train?
That's exactly what I'm arguing.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Hmmm a lot of negativity on here, having finally gotten round to watching the game, I see more positives than negatives.
I think personally we're heading in the right direction, sure, there were some below par performances, but at least we now have a clear idea on what our top side is now (unlike 2019), and for those saying we need to build depth, we have plenty of it imo.
Thought the forwards went well, with the clear standouts being Ardie, Papali'i and Scott Barrett. Whitelock put in his usual sold shift as did Taukeiaho and I know people keep moaning about a lack of 6, I think Akira and Frizzell are doing a good job. People need to get over the fact that we don't have anyone as dominant as Kaino anymore and need to make do with what we have. I prefer Frizzell starting with Akira off the bench but am happy with whatever the coaches decide on that one.
The backs were a bit rusty out there but at the same time, we know what our starting backline is going forward so on the positive side, at least the got a run together, so if they are needed, they can jump in next year if need be. We'll done to Telea on his two tries on debut and maybe it was reading this thread thinking that Clarke had an absolute disaster, and yes, I'm not saying he was great or anything, but I was expecting a lot worse.
The bench was brilliant it must be said, punishing a tiring Scottish team. Perenara, Taylor and Frizzell were especially good. Well done to Taylor who has copped plenty of criticism this year, and also Perenara, who has thrown his name in the hat for a recall next year.
I'm not saying we're the finished article, but I think as a team, we're slowly starting to understand Schmidt's gameplan a bit better and as I said earlier, at least we know what our starting side will look like. I'm still doubtful about McLeod's defensive system as just like the Japanese did, the Scots also managed to get around us with relative ease. I would have had him gone with Mooar and Plumtree personally as despite him being there for so long, we still manage to get beaten out wide as has happened all year. Our loosies have improved as a unit as the year has gone on, but we still look a bit lost in the backs, especially off line out ball where teams use the extra space to create mismatches. I put that down to McLeod personally, and its one of our big worries heading into world cup year imo.
Still, we got the win with a half strength side out there and showed a bit of character out there after getting outplayed for large periods of the game.
I get all that. But discipline for a Schmidt team was appalling. So many penalties. Won’t be winning big matches with those penalty stats.
I watch most games on French tv these days. I like the neutral commentary (except if France playing). They were fairly bemused about BBs incessant cross kicks
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@Billy-Tell Yup, no arguments here, it does need to improve, and yes, that's why I'd start Mo'unga ahead of Barrett at 10 these days. I feel that the team plays better with Mo'unga there and plays to the gameplan better, where as Barrett is playing more eyes up footy off the cuff which isn't really helping the side.
Man for man, I'd probably say that Barrett is a better player (either way there's not much between them these days), but Mo'unga is more suited to what we need from our 10 under these coaches gameplan.
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@African-Monkey I still think Beaudie is the best fullback in the squad. Sure his form has been a little up and down, but I like his pace and instincts when he has space.
Take that Havili intercept play, Beaudie ran a great fullbacks outside line and angle that gave himself space that would’ve put the defender in two minds had he got the ball when he should’ve.
It’s not to say he hasn’t played some great footy at 1st 5 in the past, but I think he’s still a great fullback that could/can play 1st 5 rather than the other way around.
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@ACT-Crusader Yeah I'm happy with Barrett at the back too. He can pick and choose when he comes into the line and take the pressure off Mo'unga from there, which he was doing in the 2 outings this year. It didn't work in the past as he was trying to take over which made Mo'unga a passenger out there, but now that he's playing the role of a fullback, the team seems to run better.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@African-Monkey I still think Beaudie is the best fullback in the squad. Sure his form has been a little up and down, but I like his pace and instincts when he has space.
Take that Havili intercept play, Beaudie ran a great fullbacks outside line and angle that gave himself space that would’ve put the defender in two minds had he got the ball when he should’ve.
It’s not to say he hasn’t played some great footy at 1st 5 in the past, but I think he’s still a great fullback that could/can play 1st 5 rather than the other way around.
DH did everything right, BB ran a great line, all up to the point of that ridiculous pass. It blows my mind that a simple draw and pass could be screwed so badly. Hell, even if DH was tackled he still could have got the offload going. BB is a great threat from broken play at the back. I'm concerned about his decisions under pressure whether to kick or run but yeah.
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@Joans-Town-Jones i think he drifted too wide, if the outside defender keeps holding off the tackle then he should have straightened and forced the wide man to commit. if he doesn't then he had a chance to break the line...if he does you can make the pass to BB in space....holding and drifting caused the problems
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones i think he drifted too wide, if the outside defender keeps holding off the tackle then he should have straightened and forced the wide man to commit. if he doesn't then he had a chance to break the line...if he does you can make the pass to BB in space....holding and drifting caused the problems
Yeah spot on,Havilli bought the defender into space between himself and BB the defender then can hold and shepherd them both towards the side line, or wait for a panic pass and that is what he got.
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Hmmm a lot of negativity on here, having finally gotten round to watching the game, I see more positives than negatives.
I think personally we're heading in the right direction, sure, there were some below par performances, but at least we now have a clear idea on what our top side is now (unlike 2019), and for those saying we need to build depth, we have plenty of it imo.
Thought the forwards went well, with the clear standouts being Ardie, Papali'i and Scott Barrett. Whitelock put in his usual sold shift as did Taukeiaho and I know people keep moaning about a lack of 6, I think Akira and Frizzell are doing a good job. People need to get over the fact that we don't have anyone as dominant as Kaino anymore and need to make do with what we have. I prefer Frizzell starting with Akira off the bench but am happy with whatever the coaches decide on that one.
The backs were a bit rusty out there but at the same time, we know what our starting backline is going forward so on the positive side, at least the got a run together, so if they are needed, they can jump in next year if need be. We'll done to Telea on his two tries on debut and maybe it was reading this thread thinking that Clarke had an absolute disaster, and yes, I'm not saying he was great or anything, but I was expecting a lot worse.
The bench was brilliant it must be said, punishing a tiring Scottish team. Perenara, Taylor and Frizzell were especially good. Well done to Taylor who has copped plenty of criticism this year, and also Perenara, who has thrown his name in the hat for a recall next year.
I'm not saying we're the finished article, but I think as a team, we're slowly starting to understand Schmidt's gameplan a bit better and as I said earlier, at least we know what our starting side will look like. I'm still doubtful about McLeod's defensive system as just like the Japanese did, the Scots also managed to get around us with relative ease. I would have had him gone with Mooar and Plumtree personally as despite him being there for so long, we still manage to get beaten out wide as has happened all year. Our loosies have improved as a unit as the year has gone on, but we still look a bit lost in the backs, especially off line out ball where teams use the extra space to create mismatches. I put that down to McLeod personally, and its one of our big worries heading into world cup year imo.
Still, we got the win with a half strength side out there and showed a bit of character out there after getting outplayed for large periods of the game.
I get all that. But discipline for a Schmidt team was appalling. So many penalties. Won’t be winning big matches with those penalty stats.
What's disappointing is listening to experienced Test players saying they need to learn not to give the opposition a hand down the pitch by giving away penalties.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones i think he drifted too wide, if the outside defender keeps holding off the tackle then he should have straightened and forced the wide man to commit. if he doesn't then he had a chance to break the line...if he does you can make the pass to BB in space....holding and drifting caused the problems
Not only that, he jogged to ensure the Scottish defenders could make it across in time. He basically did everything wrong he could.
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@antipodean yeah, trotting back after the intercept really bugged me...obviously not making a mistake it prefered....but if you do you do everything to make up for it
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@antipodean yeah, trotting back after the intercept really bugged me...obviously not making a mistake it prefered....but if you do you do everything to make up for it
The jogging back after gifting the opposition a try is just more evidence for my DH is the back version of Frizzell theory.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones i think he drifted too wide, if the outside defender keeps holding off the tackle then he should have straightened and forced the wide man to commit. if he doesn't then he had a chance to break the line...if he does you can make the pass to BB in space....holding and drifting caused the problems
I don't disagree. But he was in a good position to pass/offload to BB. The gap was wiiiide, if he accelerated just a touch he gets around the defender. What I'm saying is he couldn't have done 3 or 4 different things to put BB away yet executed so poorly and as you say, went for a stroll after.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@antipodean yeah, trotting back after the intercept really bugged me...obviously not making a mistake it prefered....but if you do you do everything to make up for it
Yep. Usually it is instinctive to do so as well.
One thing you'll always see with DMac (probably because he has lots of practice ) is when he makes a mistake he goes hard to try and fix it or make something good happen to counteract it. -
Random thought.
I wonder how many who are saying Havili should never play for the ABs again, said exactly the same about TJP barely a year ago, and are now wanting him in the XXIII for Saturday.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rapido said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
ALB would have done better to have tripped over his own laces.
If only it was Clarke chasing!
Like you I originally thought the ball had beaten Hogg, but then the replays showed how massively deep the in goal is and Hogg had already started to stop. I reckon he probably could have stopped and dived back, just beating Jordie.
It doesn't excuse the ref arrogantly ignoring opening up the gap for Hogg by blocking DP and then saying it had no effect.
To give Hogg credit, it looked to me like he manipulated that situation by running that line past the ref on purpose. Clever play.
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This post is deleted!
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I've hesitated responding to the criticism thrown at DH, because I'll get accused of bias again, but I'm doing it anyway because I have as much the right to say what I think about things as anyone else.
I've watched that intercept try over and over again and I see Havili chasing. Not fast enough, but there are various possible explanations for that. Havili always has a high work rate, so it wasn't laziness.
The most obvious explanation is that Darcy Graham had a considerable head start (Havili had to turn around first before chasing) and Havili knew he wasn't fast enough to catch him, combined with the knowledge that Graham was covered by Clarke with his far greater speed, who obviously should have tackled him. I don't think you can blame it on DH that he trusted Clarke to make the tackle.
He may also have seen Jordie coming in at full speed and he may have thought that Jordie had Graham covered too (Jordie almost had him!) and he wanted to avoid a collision with Jordie.DH can be rightfully criticised for mis-timing his pass to BB, but attacking him for chasing too slowly is laughable if you don't take into account the context.
Maybe for some perspective: DH also made the second-highest number of tackles (11) in 58 minutes, while Paps (13) and Whitelock (also 11) made theirs in the full 80. Apart from that intercept pass, he wasn't playing badly at all.
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@Stargazer Well, yes you are entitled to your opinion....as am I.
Look at the picture below, DH is within a couple of metres of Clarke. They both have to turn and run down the player, Clarke did well to react quickly and even be in a position to tackle. Yes, he should have done better but he certainly made more of an effort than DH ambling back.
Jodie got badly stepped too, try is stil DH's fault
