All Blacks vs Scotland
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Random thought.
I wonder how many who are saying Havili should never play for the ABs again, said exactly the same about TJP barely a year ago, and are now wanting him in the XXIII for Saturday.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rapido said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
ALB would have done better to have tripped over his own laces.
If only it was Clarke chasing!
Like you I originally thought the ball had beaten Hogg, but then the replays showed how massively deep the in goal is and Hogg had already started to stop. I reckon he probably could have stopped and dived back, just beating Jordie.
It doesn't excuse the ref arrogantly ignoring opening up the gap for Hogg by blocking DP and then saying it had no effect.
To give Hogg credit, it looked to me like he manipulated that situation by running that line past the ref on purpose. Clever play.
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This post is deleted!
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I've hesitated responding to the criticism thrown at DH, because I'll get accused of bias again, but I'm doing it anyway because I have as much the right to say what I think about things as anyone else.
I've watched that intercept try over and over again and I see Havili chasing. Not fast enough, but there are various possible explanations for that. Havili always has a high work rate, so it wasn't laziness.
The most obvious explanation is that Darcy Graham had a considerable head start (Havili had to turn around first before chasing) and Havili knew he wasn't fast enough to catch him, combined with the knowledge that Graham was covered by Clarke with his far greater speed, who obviously should have tackled him. I don't think you can blame it on DH that he trusted Clarke to make the tackle.
He may also have seen Jordie coming in at full speed and he may have thought that Jordie had Graham covered too (Jordie almost had him!) and he wanted to avoid a collision with Jordie.DH can be rightfully criticised for mis-timing his pass to BB, but attacking him for chasing too slowly is laughable if you don't take into account the context.
Maybe for some perspective: DH also made the second-highest number of tackles (11) in 58 minutes, while Paps (13) and Whitelock (also 11) made theirs in the full 80. Apart from that intercept pass, he wasn't playing badly at all.
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@Stargazer Well, yes you are entitled to your opinion....as am I.
Look at the picture below, DH is within a couple of metres of Clarke. They both have to turn and run down the player, Clarke did well to react quickly and even be in a position to tackle. Yes, he should have done better but he certainly made more of an effort than DH ambling back.
Jodie got badly stepped too, try is stil DH's fault
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you can sugar coat all you want (the not tracking back after the intercept thing is rubbish I'll give you) but that was a very ordinary game from DH. The intercept was fucking terrible. His first touch was a cross-field kick that went backwards (that Telea rescued for him).
I am not giving a test match 12 credit for making front on tackles against what was a pretty limited attack.
He offered zero in attack, contributing absolutely nothing. And not for the first time this year either. And there was a noticeable improvement made when he was deservedly hooked.
It was a very very ordinary day out, and another piece of evidence that he is nothing but a placeholder at this level. A serviceable guy to call on if everyone else is out. He's not strong enough, nor quick enough, nor accurate enough on attack (seriously, some of his kicking this year has been very wayward, and that is supposed to be a strength).
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@Kirwan Stills are misleading, not to mention that it was zoomed in. Tele lens always distorts the actual distances. Also, Clarke was behind them both, so had fewer metres to run back. And he's a sprinter with far bigger speed. That's why he's playing on the wing.
Havili did run to the try line instead of directly to Graham, where Jordie was, to try cutting of Graham's path to the posts. That would have been more clear with a different camera angle but from a defence point of view that wasn't the wrong thing to do.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The most obvious explanation is that Darcy Graham had a considerable head start (Havili had to turn around first before chasing) and Havili knew he wasn't fast enough to catch him, combined with the knowledge that Graham was covered by Clarke with his far greater speed, who obviously should have tackled him. I don't think you can blame it on DH that he trusted Clarke to make the tackle.
He may also have seen Jordie coming in at full speed and he may have thought that Jordie had Graham covered too (Jordie almost had him!) and he wanted to avoid a collision with Jordie.thats actually some pretty poor excuses, "someone else" will get there first? what of he shrugs of the tackle but was slowed down? what if they both go down in a tackle...we dont want people over the ball? what if a ruck forms....we dont want people back in the line fast?
looks at it again and there are 4 fatties that are getting back quicker as well as getting across from their midfield pod
he thought that was a try the second it went to hand and gave up
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@mariner4life No one is arguing that Jordie is the best 12 we have; he is. No one is arguing DH had a great game. He just wasn't as bad as people are saying. If he wasn't offering much on attack, that had a lot to do with the two players inside him. Outside Smith and Mo'unga, Havili has been good this year. Oh, and you need your placeholders (which I translate into back-ups).
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@mariner4life No one is arguing that Jordie is the best 12 we have; he is. No one is arguing DH had a great game. He just wasn't as bad as people are saying. If he wasn't offering much on attack, that had a lot to do with the two players inside him. Outside Smith and Mo'unga, Havili has been good this year. Oh, and you need your placeholders (which I translate into back-ups).
Look, that spot as a placeholder puts him in the top 25% of players in the country. That makes him actually really fucking good at rugby
But there is no way i am going to excuse a guy if the 2 players inside and the 1 outside is right. that's called a liability.
And "good" is probably not the word i would use, adequate is probably closer.
He's your boy, so i would expect you to go to the trenches for him, and this isn't me having a go. I just have a very different opinion of his spot.
At this stage he would be lucky to make my RWC squad (though i care less about that than some).
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
you can sugar coat all you want (the not tracking back after the intercept thing is rubbish I'll give you) but that was a very ordinary game from DH. The intercept was fucking terrible. His first touch was a cross-field kick that went backwards (that Telea rescued for him).
I am not giving a test match 12 credit for making front on tackles against what was a pretty limited attack.
He offered zero in attack, contributing absolutely nothing. And not for the first time this year either. And there was a noticeable improvement made when he was deservedly hooked.
It was a very very ordinary day out, and another piece of evidence that he is nothing but a placeholder at this level. A serviceable guy to call on if everyone else is out. He's not strong enough, nor quick enough, nor accurate enough on attack (seriously, some of his kicking this year has been very wayward, and that is supposed to be a strength).
I think for about 5-10 mins before he was yanked he started running straight and hard at the line. Looked alright then.
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@JC said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rapido said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
ALB would have done better to have tripped over his own laces.
If only it was Clarke chasing!
Like you I originally thought the ball had beaten Hogg, but then the replays showed how massively deep the in goal is and Hogg had already started to stop. I reckon he probably could have stopped and dived back, just beating Jordie.
It doesn't excuse the ref arrogantly ignoring opening up the gap for Hogg by blocking DP and then saying it had no effect.
To give Hogg credit, it looked to me like he manipulated that situation by running that line past the ref on purpose. Clever play.
No doubt about it - I'm surprised they didn't use it more after it became clear the ref was going to do actual blocking for them, when all they would have been hoping for was a distraction!
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I don’t have the stills to back this up but I don’t think that was the line for DP to run in that circumstance. If it was he should’ve just tackled the ref at the same time as Hogg
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I don’t have the stills to back this up but I don’t think that was the line for DP to run in that circumstance. If it was he should’ve just tackled the ref at the same time as Hogg
Dude. Stills, arrows and circles or STFU
(the ref took DP but where was the fucking pillar?)
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@Stargazer massive communication lapse then which lends toward poor connection on defence, they must train for quick turnovers, or intercepts, so if it transpired that 3 players all thought someone else might get him that ain't a good indicator or them being on the same page
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I've hesitated responding to the criticism thrown at DH, because I'll get accused of bias again, but I'm doing it anyway because I have as much the right to say what I think about things as anyone else.
I've watched that intercept try over and over again and I see Havili chasing. Not fast enough, but there are various possible explanations for that. Havili always has a high work rate, so it wasn't laziness.
The most obvious explanation is that Darcy Graham had a considerable head start (Havili had to turn around first before chasing) and Havili knew he wasn't fast enough to catch him, combined with the knowledge that Graham was covered by Clarke with his far greater speed, who obviously should have tackled him. I don't think you can blame it on DH that he trusted Clarke to make the tackle.
He may also have seen Jordie coming in at full speed and he may have thought that Jordie had Graham covered too (Jordie almost had him!) and he wanted to avoid a collision with Jordie.DH can be rightfully criticised for mis-timing his pass to BB, but attacking him for chasing too slowly is laughable if you don't take into account the context.
Maybe for some perspective: DH also made the second-highest number of tackles (11) in 58 minutes, while Paps (13) and Whitelock (also 11) made theirs in the full 80. Apart from that intercept pass, he wasn't playing badly at all.
Good lord. I'm not one to call out the one-eyed folk around here, it doesn't really bother me. But this is levels of delusion that can't be ignored.
You have actually tried to argue that he didn't chase back hard (after his complete fuck up that a 4th Grade Subbies player shouldn't make), because he thought his team mate would get there first? Or, that perhaps he was scared of running into another team mate who was actually trying his hardest to get back?
Fuck me dead.
He should have been at 100% scrambling to assist in any way that he might be able to. An ensuing ruck, a loose ball, an offload in the tackle, a counter attack opportunity, fucking anything, you know, because the ball was live!
Or even just possibly cutting the angle to make the conversion more difficult - which he didn't, and that cost 5m of ground, and the conversion was duly made.
Maybe he couldn't have done anything at all, but coming up with excuses for him not giving 100% is just plain nuts.
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To me the still shows Clarke has turned already and is actually in front of the Scot, so definitely had a better shot at the tackle.
Haven't watched it again, but from that still I'd say Havili should be racing back to cover the inside line, which by the sounds of it he didn't.
Big fuck up by Havili, fuck up by Clarke, poor attempt by Barrett.
Bye Havili, bye Clarke, do better Jordie.
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