All Blacks vs Scotland
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Not too sure what the point of all these posts about players coming into RWCs with limited experience and doing OK is in relation to Jordie?
Jordie is a player who has been shifted around too much, and as a result completely lost his way. Only when he's had some consistent time at 15 has he found his feet at the top level.
We're now trying to develop him as our first choice 12, so what do the coaches do? Shift him back to 15 to make way for a known quantity at 12. What for? Why was he moved again? Now he has to train at 12 again for the English match? Do they not learn a fucking thing?
Resting a player to manage workloads makes complete sense, and it was good to see Ioane on the bench. Shifting one of our best players around different positions in the backline is completely fucking retarded. Even more so when you do it to give one of the most limited players in the squad a run.
That's a bit harsh on Beauden!
First job was to win against the Scots.
Selections were basically made to rest Richie the Mo before England.
If Beaudy and Jordie are are five-eighth combo, we either pick Stevey P. who had a bit of a shocker against Japan and otherwise has one minute of test experience. Or shift Davey H. back to a position he hasn't played in 18 months (several years at test level) and assume that all will be sweet.
Into a back three with a debutant who didn't make the initial squad and a guy who's been struggling on several fronts all season.
Or we pick the guy who has played 12 almost all season and the guy who has played 15 almost all season.
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Looks to me the 2023 WC maybe to far off for Beuden Barrett another 12 mths give or take a month is probably not going to help him.
Time for McZenzie to take his spot in the squad IMO.Telea for Clarke.
Sorry Akira fans but,Not the sort of 6 we need to win a WC.
TJP life in the old dog yet, maybe great coming of the bench in a tight Finals playoff game.
Jordie has to play 12 with Reiko at 13 If Selected correctly we may have a WC squad capable of doing something as long as we can negate the HC.
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Taylor and Stanley had played ONE test together prior to the 87 WC
95 Lomu Kronfeld Mehts and Osborne had 5 tests between them
2011 On top of the injury issues at 10 the back 3 practically got introduced on the way to Eden Park for the first test.
they are 3 of our 4 most successful WC's 2015 is the outlier.
Sure it's nice to have a setlled experience team with viable back-up options across the fiels, but it hardly ever happens.
Another example for 2011 is halfback. If you look at 2010 it was clear that Jimmy Cowan was the first choice starting halfback starting 9 matches including Wales x3, Ireland, Boks x2, Oz x2. In 2010 Weepu came off the bench in 6 matches and started 3. He hadn’t started a test match since 2008 EOYT before he got the start in 2010 Welly test vs the Boks.
Come 2011 prior to the RWC, Cowan starts tests vs Fiji Boks x2, but they give the two Bledisloe starts to Weepu.
RWC rolls on and Cowan starts the first match against Tonga. We have Weepu on the bench in the second match (vs Japan) as a reserve 1st 5 (Ellis started and Cowan was the reserve halfback). Match 3 is France our most important pool match and Henry goes to Weepu (with Ellis as reserve). Final pool match vs Canada and he starts Cowan with Ellis as the reserve. Weepu is selected as reserve 1st 5.
QF vs Argies - starts Weepu with Cowan as reserve. By this time Cruden has joined the squad and into the team.
SF vs Boks - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve. By this time Beaver has joined the squad and is named in the 22 but doesn’t play.
Final vs France - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve.
So a long winded way to say - given how it played out in the RWC with our halfback position, what happened the year prior had very little bearing IMO. The critical thing was that Weepu had experience and was called on in 2011 despite up and down form and fitness in 2010.
Thought Andy Ellis was fantastic closing out that final too, Beaver got all the plaudits , but Ellis calmness in difficult circumstances probably doesnt get the credit it deserves , you just never know who you may need to rely on .
I think the cartel showed in the France pool game that it was going to be a Weepu/Ellis starting and finishing combo at the business end, barring injury to them or any further 1st 5s going down!
Ellis had his moments. I think his strength was when the game got into a slog and the rucks were a bit messy. Perhaps his early days of playing as a loosie helped that.
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@ACT-Crusader @kiwiinmelb remembering that Cowan's form simultaneously fell off a cliff.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
"Rugby: All Blacks coach Ian Foster impressed with ‘signs of growth’ in comeback win over Scotland"
No problems here. Nothing to see.
Outstanding work narrowly avoiding losing to Scotland who lost to 9th ranked Wallabies (who went on to lose to 12th ranked Italy) just 2 weeks ago.
Bloody hell is Italy 12th? World rugby is very competitive at the moment.
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If only there was another squad full of NZ players in the UK at the same time who the ABs could call upon. They may even have a guy with test experience playing at 15.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.We don't have time ffs. 10 tests. TEN is what we have between now and a QF exit. We had time in 2020 and 2021. Now we don't.
You seem to be getting a bit stressed about this. Considering none of us are party to training data, playing data,knowledge of niggling injuries, knowledge of personal leave etc etc maybe just see how it pans out?
I'd think that next year a key 23 will be used as much as possible but there will be the occasional need to deliberately give someone in the squad time if it doesn't come 'naturally'Na I'm super psyched about a coach who doesn't appear to give 2 fucks about time left and continuity.
And for some reason think that demanding he follows your thinking from an internet forum despite not having even half the information he does will somehow set the rugby world to rights?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
If only there was another squad full of NZ players in the UK at the same time who the ABs could call upon. They may even have a guy with test experience playing at 15.
Who happened to be playing 10 on the same weekend 😀
I like the concept of the AB XV and it was great to see some players get a go and even step up.
But a problem with it was the interchange. Sounded good in theory but in reality I think it created a few issues. For instance they clearly wanted to give some a run (eg RTS, Ennor, Fainga’anuku) but they also wanted to reward some players by having them with the ABs so they can be in that environment, train with veterans and should they be required (more likely as a result of injury or other unavailability) get their shot.
Talea got it because we are short on right wingers with Jordan out.
But Aumua didn’t because they went with the two first choice hookers and that meant Brodie got another run in the XV side.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.We don't have time ffs. 10 tests. TEN is what we have between now and a QF exit. We had time in 2020 and 2021. Now we don't.
You seem to be getting a bit stressed about this. Considering none of us are party to training data, playing data,knowledge of niggling injuries, knowledge of personal leave etc etc maybe just see how it pans out?
I'd think that next year a key 23 will be used as much as possible but there will be the occasional need to deliberately give someone in the squad time if it doesn't come 'naturally'Na I'm super psyched about a coach who doesn't appear to give 2 fucks about time left and continuity.
And for some reason think that demanding he follows your thinking from an internet forum despite not having even half the information he does will somehow set the rugby world to rights?
What?
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Just watching the game now. Initial impressions
- Telea looks pretty good
- Clarke botched a try. Why did he cut inside into traffic instead of trying to fend off the defender and set sail for the corner? Wing play 101
- Scots first try was a clear case of ref obstruction on DP. His smile suggests he's done a deal with someone
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Just watching the game now. Initial impressions
- Telea looks pretty good
- Clarke botched a try. Why did he cut inside into traffic instead of trying to fend off the defender and set sail for the corner? Wing play 101
- Scots first try was a clear case of ref obstruction on DP. His smile suggests he's done a deal with someone
Re the botched Clarke try. It was a sweet draw and pass from ALB.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.We don't have time ffs. 10 tests. TEN is what we have between now and a QF exit. We had time in 2020 and 2021. Now we don't.
You seem to be getting a bit stressed about this. Considering none of us are party to training data, playing data,knowledge of niggling injuries, knowledge of personal leave etc etc maybe just see how it pans out?
I'd think that next year a key 23 will be used as much as possible but there will be the occasional need to deliberately give someone in the squad time if it doesn't come 'naturally'Na I'm super psyched about a coach who doesn't appear to give 2 fucks about time left and continuity.
And for some reason think that demanding he follows your thinking from an internet forum despite not having even half the information he does will somehow set the rugby world to rights?
What?
Just pointing out that you are going on and on about the same thing as if you think someone is listening.
By the way, you know that JB/RI midfield that was so brilliant against Oz? They had only played about 15 minutes as a combo before that game. Yep. Not 62 games.
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TJP played himself back into the 23. His rugby intelligence, especially with the refs has been hugely influential for both the teams he has represented over the last few weeks.
Paps, Ardie, and SF for the starting loose trio, please. AI didn't do too badly but there seemed a big difference once Shannon joined the fray.
Jodie and RI just have to play midfield from now on. RI is influential wherever he plays but there are no other choices at center. One of the most important members of the team now. If he goes down,........shittings!
Once we get Lomax back at tighthead, the ABs have a pretty tidy tight five I think. Do you play Ofa or not on the bench?
Oh, and once Jordan is back, I don't think BB should be anywhere near the starting 15. -
Only caught the highlights now.
Gee that was a very dodgy penalty try against ALB, and also a very harsh yellow against Scotland.
Unsurprisingly, the referee gets stuck right in and punishes the defender way out of whack to the crime.
No way Hogg ws scoring that, bounce fooled them both. ALB would have done better to have tripped over his own laces. Triple punished.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
If it was about managing his workload then why tf even play him in this game?Play him at 12 or not at all.
They wouldn't have played him if Will Jordan was available for 15.
At the end of the day it was patently obvious that DH was a stopgap at best. The idea that he was ever going to be a world class 12 was stoopid.
Maybe. But how does that address the issue of back-up at 12 if Jordie is injured?
Was JB really the only viable option at 15?
RM was being rested so BB at 10.
DH has played what, dozen tests at 12? His use in the squad now is as a utility so maybe best to test him in other positions, like maybe fullback....
Or maybe show more than 50 seconds of trust in SP.
Maybe they wanted experience at 15 & 10.
Then why not DH to 15?
Inexperience.
DH has no experience at fullback?
As I said, they probably selected JB at 15 as they deemed DH was inexperienced/not good enough there.
Btw you haven't explained how selecting JB at 15 and making him kicker can be called managing his workload.
It was about managing RM's workload. Playing BB at 10 meant someone else at 15. WJ wasn't available and, after consideration (and probably talking to the players) they chose JB as the best option.
My original point was the risk of playing JB at 12, every Test until RWC2023, to build combination/experience. Fine in theory, but there's a risk the plan unravelling if he gets injured and there's bugger all backup. Apart from blaming Foster, what do we do then?
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@Rapido said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
ALB would have done better to have tripped over his own laces.
If only it was Clarke chasing!
Like you I originally thought the ball had beaten Hogg, but then the replays showed how massively deep the in goal is and Hogg had already started to stop. I reckon he probably could have stopped and dived back, just beating Jordie.
It doesn't excuse the ref arrogantly ignoring opening up the gap for Hogg by blocking DP and then saying it had no effect.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
You want more time developing a backup than a starter? Fucking mindless.
It's not binary. Try actually reading what I wrote rather than throwing your toys out of the pam because I don't agree with you.
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While Murphy was generally good one of the penalties he gave Scotland in the 1st half was very poor. When Akira took the ball into contract and was penalised for holding on, a Scottish player was on the ground on the ABs side of the ruck and rolled to take Savea's legs from under him to prevent Ardie from being the cleaner.
I'm not sure why people are saying ALB looked slow. He and Hogg ran right past Jordie to what eventually led to the PT. So JB was really slow.
Clarke has the turning circle of a supertanker.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rapido said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
ALB would have done better to have tripped over his own laces.
If only it was Clarke chasing!
Like you I originally thought the ball had beaten Hogg, but then the replays showed how massively deep the in goal is and Hogg had already started to stop. I reckon he probably could have stopped and dived back, just beating Jordie.
It doesn't excuse the ref arrogantly ignoring opening up the gap for Hogg by blocking DP and then saying it had no effect.
Fair enough. You probably saw more replay angles than was on the package I watched.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
If it was about managing his workload then why tf even play him in this game?Play him at 12 or not at all.
They wouldn't have played him if Will Jordan was available for 15.
At the end of the day it was patently obvious that DH was a stopgap at best. The idea that he was ever going to be a world class 12 was stoopid.
Maybe. But how does that address the issue of back-up at 12 if Jordie is injured?
That point makes no sense. Giving Havili more time to show he isn't fit to be a backup 12 doesn't provide a solution to the hypothetical question.
Perhaps they thought DH would do OK and develop as he's had some good Tests at 12 before? Hopefully that's been put to bed after that shocker.
They have a big problem in midfield and bugger all time left to fix it.
