Foster, Robertson etc
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@His-Bobness said in Foster:
Excellent analysis in the Roar by ‘Highlander’ on Foster’s incomprehensible single-minded devotion to helter-skelter play that pays little heed to what the opposition will bring to the game. We have seen this so many times now, it raises questions about the man’s intelligence:
“The Foster iteration of the All Blacks has no identity, and even when they show periods of high-quality international rugby, it is not maintained and this reversion to helter-skelter nonsense just repeats ad nauseam from a side that simply does not have the skillset to play the way the way they are pursuing. For mine, this ill-directed game plan has an inbuilt negative multiplier of poor selection, both in personnel and positions.”
I don't think we or any country has ever had a side with the skillset to play the Helter skelter rugby Foster and later years Hansen seem to want. Even our GOAT team of 2015 did the hard yards to get wins done when things didn't go our way without trying to spin it wide at every opportunity. That we've had any success at all playing that way is a testament to the talent we have at our disposal, but it's braindead rugby.
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@reprobate said in Foster:
@Machpants Exactly. He’s really good when we have front foot ball and space but there’s no space and we haven’t earned the right to go wide. Maybe he can change his game and try to run around the rucks a little bit more, little kicks over the top etc to change things up. The opposition knows he is going to pass.
Addition if the others outside him I’m going to get out the game plan then as the first distributor he can change that right?
I hate to say it but a Marshall type player maybe the type of player we need right now.
You want more stupid little kicks to give the ball away?
It's not a halfback's job to earn the right to go wide, that's the game plan, and the forwards. You want to fix that problem you drop the coach amd/or some forwards, not the halfback.
Unfortunately in our case we've sbeen hit up front and we've dropped some assistant coaches and a right winger who was one of the few guys playing well. Dropping Smith would be just as silly as that.Of course not. I just want variation from him or stick to the structure. To be fair he seemed to stick to the game plan in the first half but I think it was yanked when he went away from the game plan in the second half. Not helped by the worthless decision to sub ST who is the best forward on the park. I just think he’s too predictable and have been saying that for a couple years. But he’s the ferns sacred cow.
And of course it’s not all on him. We got ourselves into positions where we isolated and moved away from those pod structures that worked in the first half. Hence the penalties.
I agree with dropping coaches. I would have never picked this fool.
I agree the forwards have to earn the right to go wide but he is at the back of the pack and makes those decisions based on his read of the game.
I’d rather have Clark than Reese. Reese is also good with a bit of space but often times when he’s tiptoeing against the grain is ineffective. Maybe swap him out for Jordan or JB?
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@reprobate Not disputing his ability to pass just questioning the way he’s directing the forward pack.
And the fact he doesn't run, he is a one trick pony, he's the Pocock of nines ATM
He ran in Bokke 2. You don't have to run often, once or twice to keep defences thinking it's a possibility.
Also, we didn't hear 'one trick pony' after Ireland 1.
You know what you get with AS, he's got teh best pass in the game, but if he's not running it's on the coaches eventually.
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@reprobate Not disputing his ability to pass just questioning the way he’s directing the forward pack.
And the fact he doesn't run, he is a one trick pony, he's the Pocock of nines ATM
He ran in Bokke 2. You don't have to run often, once or twice to keep defences thinking it's a possibility.
Also, we didn't hear 'one trick pony' after Ireland 1.
You know what you get with AS, he's got teh best pass in the game, but if he's not running it's on the coaches eventually.
You can only run at halfback when you get quick ball with the defence on the backfoot. If he's not getting either of those it is a crazy expectation.
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@reprobate Not disputing his ability to pass just questioning the way he’s directing the forward pack.
And the fact he doesn't run, he is a one trick pony, he's the Pocock of nines ATM
He ran in Bokke 2. You don't have to run often, once or twice to keep defences thinking it's a possibility.
Also, we didn't hear 'one trick pony' after Ireland 1.
You know what you get with AS, he's got teh best pass in the game, but if he's not running it's on the coaches eventually.
You can only run at halfback when you get quick ball with the defence on the backfoot. If he's not getting either of those it is a crazy expectation.
I disagree, cos it was not like every ruck for the entire game was under pressure. We were often on the front foot until the second half. The tactic was to pass or smith doesn't have the vision/confidence to run anymore. There were opportunities there, he never took them.
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@reprobate said in Foster:
It's hard to achieve too many 50/22s when your tactic is shitty chip kicks and bombs in your own half.
You're also assuming that the ABs will win the lineout from the 50/22 kick. Both Coles and Taylor have imploded with late lineout throws in recent tests.
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@reprobate said in Foster:
It's hard to achieve too many 50/22s when your tactic is shitty chip kicks and bombs in your own half.
You're also assuming that the ABs will win the lineout from the 50/22 kick. Both Coles and Taylor have imploded with late lineout throws in recent tests.
I was out so didn't watch the game. Were the lineout woes all on the hookers or was it a collective failure of the unit?
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@reprobate said in Foster:
It's hard to achieve too many 50/22s when your tactic is shitty chip kicks and bombs in your own half.
You're also assuming that the ABs will win the lineout from the 50/22 kick. Both Coles and Taylor have imploded with late lineout throws in recent tests.
I was out so didn't watch the game. Were the lineout woes all on the one hooker or was it a collective failure of the unit?
FIFY and yes.
Taylor was shite.
Maybe, just maybe, some blame can go to Whitelock on the last lineout as he looked to panic and rush Taylor's throw -
Hope not. But the issue clearly is not just a poor head coach. But obviously appointing a limited super rugby coach doesn't help. And then letting this same coach select a new coaching team is beyond silly. I still have doubts about Joe based on what happened in Ireland. And now after just one test where he is fully on board
So maybe Robertson is only a partial answer. Long term more is needed like replacing Robinson. And a new structure to attract better candidates to the NZR Board
And it is a decline: everything about the All Blacks’ performance on Saturday screamed decline: you don’t get to that point unless a number of things have gone wrong. Here are some of the symptoms and/or causes of the Australian decline: do they sound familiar? A lack of alignment between the governing body and the test team; an over-sensitivity to criticism; a lack of effective relationships between the national side and the Super Rugby clubs; the atrophying of professional players’ skill levels; the development of saviour syndrome amongst fans (if only coach A/player A were involved it would be just fine); player power; a complete disconnection between the rich professional game and the grassroots; clear evidence of people within the rugby system working in silos; an inability to work out what to do with the ‘third tier’ of rugby (NPC); the loss of coaches overseas; a misguided belief that what worked previously will work again; blaming external factors (the refs, the rules); and performance inconsistency. To that list, New Zealand has its own unique issues, such as a relatively stagnant professional competition that is won by only one team (the Crusaders) and the unhealthy pooling of playing resources in the top two teams. -
@canefan Also, there was a Crusaders tight 5 in the 2nd half so Taylor was throwing to familiar targets in Whitelock and Barrett, and some lifters. Whitelock called the throw to Ioane at the front that was contested, but the not straights are on the hooker.
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@His-Bobness said in Foster:
Excellent analysis in the Roar by ‘Highlander’ on Foster’s incomprehensible single-minded devotion to helter-skelter play that pays little heed to what the opposition will bring to the game. We have seen this so many times now, it raises questions about the man’s intelligence:
“The Foster iteration of the All Blacks has no identity, and even when they show periods of high-quality international rugby, it is not maintained and this reversion to helter-skelter nonsense just repeats ad nauseam from a side that simply does not have the skillset to play the way the way they are pursuing. For mine, this ill-directed game plan has an inbuilt negative multiplier of poor selection, both in personnel and positions.”
And a thought provoking quote in the comments -
"Was it just me [too many red wines] thinking that the AB backline was standing noticeably flatter this week than they were at Ellis Park. If I am right this must have been a coaching instruction from our new attack coach. During Schmidt’s time with Ireland it was a feature of their game that the backline had a very flat alignment. I thought the great strength of the ABs at Ellis Park was the extra depth of the backline enabling Mounga and Havili time to play to their strengths. I wonder if Schmidt is going to be the game changer for the ABs so many posters on here thought he would be. So far [and I know there has only been one game] the prospects don’t look promising. At the end of his time with Ireland they were being beaten by teams like Japan and the comment was being made that their game plan was very predictable. Some of the players subsequently made the point that Schmidt was extremely stubborn and refused to change. Sound familiar. Perhaps he and Foster were made for each other. It certainly looked so on Saturday night."
Yep noticed that flat alignment and wondered why the change from what we achieved at Ellis Park.
It certainly made a significant difference in a negative way standing really flat.Especially when the Argies were deploying a similar rush defence as the Boks. We certainly weren’t getting the returns for what the flat alignment provides with the defence the Argies were playing.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster:
@His-Bobness said in Foster:
Excellent analysis in the Roar by ‘Highlander’ on Foster’s incomprehensible single-minded devotion to helter-skelter play that pays little heed to what the opposition will bring to the game. We have seen this so many times now, it raises questions about the man’s intelligence:
“The Foster iteration of the All Blacks has no identity, and even when they show periods of high-quality international rugby, it is not maintained and this reversion to helter-skelter nonsense just repeats ad nauseam from a side that simply does not have the skillset to play the way the way they are pursuing. For mine, this ill-directed game plan has an inbuilt negative multiplier of poor selection, both in personnel and positions.”
And a thought provoking quote in the comments -
"Was it just me [too many red wines] thinking that the AB backline was standing noticeably flatter this week than they were at Ellis Park. If I am right this must have been a coaching instruction from our new attack coach. During Schmidt’s time with Ireland it was a feature of their game that the backline had a very flat alignment. I thought the great strength of the ABs at Ellis Park was the extra depth of the backline enabling Mounga and Havili time to play to their strengths. I wonder if Schmidt is going to be the game changer for the ABs so many posters on here thought he would be. So far [and I know there has only been one game] the prospects don’t look promising. At the end of his time with Ireland they were being beaten by teams like Japan and the comment was being made that their game plan was very predictable. Some of the players subsequently made the point that Schmidt was extremely stubborn and refused to change. Sound familiar. Perhaps he and Foster were made for each other. It certainly looked so on Saturday night."
Yep noticed that flat alignment and wondered why the change from what we achieved at Ellis Park.
It certainly made a significant difference in a negative way standing really flat.Especially when the Argies were deploying a similar rush defence as the Boks. We certainly weren’t getting the returns for what the flat alignment provides with the defence the Argies were playing.
I don’t understand with Schmidt taking over the attack for the Argies test why we reverted back to that
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster:
@His-Bobness said in Foster:
Excellent analysis in the Roar by ‘Highlander’ on Foster’s incomprehensible single-minded devotion to helter-skelter play that pays little heed to what the opposition will bring to the game. We have seen this so many times now, it raises questions about the man’s intelligence:
“The Foster iteration of the All Blacks has no identity, and even when they show periods of high-quality international rugby, it is not maintained and this reversion to helter-skelter nonsense just repeats ad nauseam from a side that simply does not have the skillset to play the way the way they are pursuing. For mine, this ill-directed game plan has an inbuilt negative multiplier of poor selection, both in personnel and positions.”
And a thought provoking quote in the comments -
"Was it just me [too many red wines] thinking that the AB backline was standing noticeably flatter this week than they were at Ellis Park. If I am right this must have been a coaching instruction from our new attack coach. During Schmidt’s time with Ireland it was a feature of their game that the backline had a very flat alignment. I thought the great strength of the ABs at Ellis Park was the extra depth of the backline enabling Mounga and Havili time to play to their strengths. I wonder if Schmidt is going to be the game changer for the ABs so many posters on here thought he would be. So far [and I know there has only been one game] the prospects don’t look promising. At the end of his time with Ireland they were being beaten by teams like Japan and the comment was being made that their game plan was very predictable. Some of the players subsequently made the point that Schmidt was extremely stubborn and refused to change. Sound familiar. Perhaps he and Foster were made for each other. It certainly looked so on Saturday night."
Yep noticed that flat alignment and wondered why the change from what we achieved at Ellis Park.
It certainly made a significant difference in a negative way standing really flat.Especially when the Argies were deploying a similar rush defence as the Boks. We certainly weren’t getting the returns for what the flat alignment provides with the defence the Argies were playing.
I don’t understand with Schmidt taking over the attack for the Argies test why we reverted back to that
Keeping the powder dry
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@Winger Ive read comments from Irish supporters and I guess the feeling is a bit mixed when it comes to Joe , overall they are happy with some of the success he brought but there is still some negative stuff to go with that ,
Basically it goes along the line of- he was great for a while , then we got worked out and everyone knew what was coming , he didnt seem to have an answer and just kept recycling the same stuff
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in Foster:
Aaron Smith coming off with 20 to go was poor as well. He was playing OK, but more to the point what we needed was experience and cool heads, not a guy with basically no experience.
He was playing dog shit by then. Like the rest of 'em. Christie needs a start now.
Not on the form he displayed this year. Like an excitable puppy with the passing to match.
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I hate myself for doing this, but Foster hasn't been helped by the refs this year. With this team, we are vulnerable to a ref that plays a style we struggle with.
Ireland 3: the head collision should have been red, and we'd win that game.
Bokke 1: the ref interpretations around supporting bodyweight were ... interesting. We weren't good enough to respond and play to the new line, but it let SA wreak merry havoc in our rucks. Our cleaning sucked too, but the ref sure didn't help.
Argentina 1: Just at the end of the first half. The ref is just a bit random, and really likes blowing penalties against attacking sides, and allow some random players off feet to play the ball. You can see players getting frustrated; some pedantic calls followed by shrugging at offences.
Nothing major to it, just reflecting on it. We're not a well disciplined side, adn we don't seem to be playing smart to refs. But, Foster is not being helped.
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I hate myself for doing this, but Foster hasn't been helped by the refs this year. With this team, we are vulnerable to a ref that plays a style we struggle with.
Ireland 3: the head collision should have been red, and we'd win that game.
Bokke 1: the ref interpretations around supporting bodyweight were ... interesting. We weren't good enough to respond and play to the new line, but it let SA wreak merry havoc in our rucks. Our cleaning sucked too, but the ref sure didn't help.
Argentina 1: Just at the end of the first half. The ref is just a bit random, and really likes blowing penalties against attacking sides, and allow some random players off feet to play the ball. You can see players getting frustrated; some pedantic calls followed by shrugging at offences.
Nothing major to it, just reflecting on it. We're not a well disciplined side, adn we don't seem to be playing smart to refs. But, Foster is not being helped.
handling refs is part of playing smart and selecting and coaching smart players and smart tactics. It isn't a one-off game but almost every game (not SA test 2).
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@kiwiinmelb said in Foster:
@Winger Ive read comments from Irish supporters and I guess the feeling is a bit mixed when it comes to Joe , overall they are happy with some of the success he brought but there is still some negative stuff to go with that ,
Basically it goes along the line of- he was great for a while , then we got worked out and everyone knew what was coming , he didnt seem to have an answer and just kept recycling the same stuff
Yeah that's my feedback as well. He was great at finally making them consistent but it was a highly attritional style of play that bit them on the arse in 2019. Farrell has injected some much needed innovation and taken them to another level. It concerns me greatly that we seem to have inherited a guy who is considered past his use by date.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel dunno, right now having some structure & consistency sounds mighty fine to me...cos the 2nd half of that test, and the 1st of the 3rd Irish test are up there as some of the worst AB rugby I have seen where nothing went right and basic skills went out the window.
The pressure form the opposition, the pressure from themselves, the pressure simply to perform is immense, and they are failing at almost every turn right now.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster:
@kiwiinmelb said in Foster:
@Winger Ive read comments from Irish supporters and I guess the feeling is a bit mixed when it comes to Joe , overall they are happy with some of the success he brought but there is still some negative stuff to go with that ,
Basically it goes along the line of- he was great for a while , then we got worked out and everyone knew what was coming , he didnt seem to have an answer and just kept recycling the same stuff
Yeah that's my feedback as well. He was great at finally making them consistent but it was a highly attritional style of play that bit them on the arse in 2019. Farrell has injected some much needed innovation and taken them to another level. It concerns me greatly that we seem to have inherited a guy who is considered past his use by date.
I was really impressed that Farrell took the basic building blocks (which were good) but further honed them (where needed).
