Worst AB Captain
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@taniwharugby said in Worst AB Captain:
@nzzp I think our skills (seeming lack of) are just another symptom of the pressure these guys are under.
I'm getting increasingly convinced it's the collective yips from the senior players and they feel like they have no control/confidence over the situation when things go wrong. When things don't go well, they either play brilliantly for 20 minutes and then fuck up so there's no reward for the effort, or simply just fuck-up - Taylor's throwing as an example. Seems to have been an issue for a while. Can't blame Cane for that - it's a collective thing.
They didn't look like they were enjoying themselves on Saturday - unlike Ellis Park. Ironically, the collective thinking in Boer II may have been, "bugger it, we've got nothing to loose now, lets just relax and enjoy ourselves".
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@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@nostrildamus said in Worst AB Captain:
Quick question regards Cane after reading today's stuff article "Ian Foster's logic matched by his All Blacks' baffling form" by Duncan Johnstone
This is captain Cane who has been replaced in the second half in four of this year’s six tests, a statistic that does little to boost the public questioning of his place at openside flanker or the need for leadership in the final quarter when these All Blacks have regularly been found wanting.Were any of those 4 replacements for injury and did Cane's replacement seem to help/improve their performance or not?
Slipper the Aus captain has been replaced in all his 3 games as captain, means f*** all really.
different, props don't last 80 these days,Dumb choice for a Captain.
McCaw didn't get subbed or Read and they are LF's like Cane it means a great deal when you sub your Captain, in AB's it just hasn't happened before except for injury.
Why does anyone say but McCaw didn't or did do anything, you know he has retired and was probably one of best players to play the game. I have seen many captains replaced Kolisi, does, I have seen George Gregan replaced,,Dylan Hartley,for England,,Sam Warburton for Lions and Wales etc, it's not that unusual to be honest. Christ even DuPont probably the best 9 on the planet and captain gets subbed.
Whoops and just McCaw has been subbed. It's not a big thing to sub captains, , FrenNot a good look when you are losing all the time the Captain is getting bagged in the media and by a lot of people and the Coach Drags him 4 games in a row.
That is not a good look throws petrol on the fire.
Bad coaching.Unless it's part of the game plan to bring on a different style of player (say, impact) for the last 10-20 minutes. If you hold to the idea that captaincy is of less importance than player ability & fit into the game plan, it does make sense.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Worst AB Captain:
@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@nostrildamus said in Worst AB Captain:
Quick question regards Cane after reading today's stuff article "Ian Foster's logic matched by his All Blacks' baffling form" by Duncan Johnstone
This is captain Cane who has been replaced in the second half in four of this year’s six tests, a statistic that does little to boost the public questioning of his place at openside flanker or the need for leadership in the final quarter when these All Blacks have regularly been found wanting.Were any of those 4 replacements for injury and did Cane's replacement seem to help/improve their performance or not?
Slipper the Aus captain has been replaced in all his 3 games as captain, means f*** all really.
different, props don't last 80 these days,Dumb choice for a Captain.
McCaw didn't get subbed or Read and they are LF's like Cane it means a great deal when you sub your Captain, in AB's it just hasn't happened before except for injury.
Why does anyone say but McCaw didn't or did do anything, you know he has retired and was probably one of best players to play the game. I have seen many captains replaced Kolisi, does, I have seen George Gregan replaced,,Dylan Hartley,for England,,Sam Warburton for Lions and Wales etc, it's not that unusual to be honest. Christ even DuPont probably the best 9 on the planet and captain gets subbed.
Whoops and just McCaw has been subbed. It's not a big thing to sub captains, , FrenNot a good look when you are losing all the time the Captain is getting bagged in the media and by a lot of people and the Coach Drags him 4 games in a row.
That is not a good look throws petrol on the fire.
Bad coaching.Unless it's part of the game plan to bring on a different style of player (say, impact) for the last 10-20 minutes. If you hold to the idea that captaincy is of less importance than player ability & fit into the game plan, it does make sense.
To be honest I don’t see a lot of tactical ability in the coaching at the moment.
So I question a lot of what I am seeing at the moment.
My faith in them has eroded by a large amount. -
@Crucial said in Worst AB Captain:
@nzzp said in Worst AB Captain:
@broughie same problem with Kieran Read last rwc. His form disappeared but he was locked in as captain and no appetite for change.
Cane is a tremendous human, and was a bloody good rugby player. He's not putting that out there at the moment though, and that's where the issues start. Far away from our worst captain though, he is copping blame for a dysfunctional coaching and selecting unit
Only disagree with “that’s where the issues start”. We aren’t losing games from the openside. We are losing games because we are allowing ourselves to be put under pressure then not coping well with said pressure.
Easiest way to stop teams getting in your face is to turn them around. Why do our 10s not understand this basic concept? Either pin them back and make them play their way out or kick to space with a chase. Put pressure back on them.I'm going to disagree with your "we aren't losing games at openside" statement.
Over the last 20 years under both McCaw and pre-2020 Cane quick turnovers at ruck time/counter-attack become a key attacking weapon for counter-attacking. France/Ireland/South Africa all utilise this at as many rucks as possible while Canes approach following injuries in 2020 has been to get the tackled player on the ground, roll away and get up
to make the next tackle.While Cane puts in immense defensive efforts in almost every game, it does result in him appearing exhausted (and why he gets subbed). He's working harder rather than smarter...
Finally, I don't believe Cane works well with his team mates to make the team better than the individuals - we don't see Cane and 2/6/8 working as pairs to get turnovers. We rarely see Cane getting turnovers as they are usually individual efforts by Ardie.
While these individual points may not be the moments that "cost us games", they are key areas that the All Blacks did well in the last few decades to ensure that pressure was on the opposition rather than us.
As a player, I think Cane has been invaluable in the past. I'm not convinced he was a captain and if he was, he's reached the point where he's neither a good enough player to his position or a good enough captain to justify keeping better players from playing.
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@PecoTrain said in Worst AB Captain:
quick turnovers at ruck time/counter-attack become a key attacking weapon for counter-attacking.
I'm going to disagree with the assumption that openside was necessarily the source of said turnovers. Nothing at all to back it up, but I'd be quite surprised to find that McCaw consistently topped the turnover count. Read, Kaino, Whitelock, Retallick, Coles, various backs...heck even Taylor up until a couple of years ago were all excellent exponents.
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@PecoTrain said in Worst AB Captain:
In fact, many of turnovers nowadays being made by hookers. They linger so that when tackler delays release they can latch on before ball can be placed.
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@pakman said in Worst AB Captain:
One inconvenient fact in terms of this debate is that in the most critical 15 minutes when ABs made poor tactical choices SAVEA was the captain.
I blame Foster for playing Ardie out of position.
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@pakman said in Worst AB Captain:
@PecoTrain said in Worst AB Captain:
In fact, many of turnovers nowadays being made by hookers. They linger so that when tackler delays release they can latch on before ball can be placed.
And midfield backs quite often make more than loosies these days.
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@pakman said in Worst AB Captain:
One inconvenient fact in terms of this debate is that in the most critical 15 minutes when ABs made poor tactical choices SAVEA was the captain.
He didn't turn down two kickable penalites, he only turned down one when we were already 7 points behind
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@pakman said in Worst AB Captain:
One inconvenient fact in terms of this debate is that in the most critical 15 minutes when ABs made poor tactical choices SAVEA was the captain.
Hahaha, indeed. Put him in the poll. Was he the captain when we lost the Origin decider too?
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@pakman said in Worst AB Captain:
One inconvenient fact in terms of this debate is that in the most critical 15 minutes when ABs made poor tactical choices SAVEA was the captain.
i can't believe, in the same breath that people are asking for more tactical thought on the field, that those saem people are suggesting Ardie Savea as the captain.
The very definition of tactical inflexibility. Ardie, bless him, is all attack, all the time. So much so that his excited labrador act often results in shitty errors at poor times.
There is so much broken at the moment. But i do think leadership is one of the most important. I just read Ryan having a pop at individual preparation during the week. The skipper should be setting those standards. If he's not, or he is an no one is following, that's a big concern.
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@mariner4life said in Worst AB Captain:
@pakman said in Worst AB Captain:
One inconvenient fact in terms of this debate is that in the most critical 15 minutes when ABs made poor tactical choices SAVEA was the captain.
i can't believe, in the same breath that people are asking for more tactical thought on the field, that those saem people are suggesting Ardie Savea as the captain.
The very definition of tactical inflexibility. Ardie, bless him, is all attack, all the time. So much so that his excited labrador act often results in shitty errors at poor times.
There is so much broken at the moment. But i do think leadership is one of the most important. I just read Ryan having a pop at individual preparation during the week. The skipper should be setting those standards. If he's not, or he is an no one is following, that's a big concern.
But he can learn. Cane has had his time, so Ardie has got a year and a half to improve. Canes has had 2.5 and stil hasn't got it.
How hard is TAKE THE FUCKING THREE
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@Machpants dunno, Ardie has made some baffling decisions for the Canes too...
Right now, I reckon SW maybe only realistic option, outside that, the cupboard is bare anyway unless you sweep Cane out and put Dalton in, but him coming in at this point to captain...sheesh big ask.
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@taniwharugby i'd throw Smith out there, been a pretty good captain for the Highlanders, he might be feeling some pressure for is jersey currently but generally a lock for his position, and a halfback so loves a chat with the ref
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@taniwharugby said in Worst AB Captain:
@Machpants dunno, Ardie has made some baffling decisions for the Canes too...
Right now, I reckon SW maybe only realistic option, outside that, the cupboard is bare anyway unless you sweep Cane out and put Dalton in, but him coming in at this point to captain...sheesh big ask.
Yeah fair point
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@Kiwiwomble a year or so ago, I think I'd have been happy with that, but I think he, as part of the leadership group is struggling too (As is SW) he is too predictable and limited at the moment, maybe that is being constrained to the proposed game plan and structures, who knows?
All is not well in this team off the park, and it is transferring to the play, as soon as a bit of heat is applied, they melt like butter.
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@Machpants said in Worst AB Captain:
@mariner4life said in Worst AB Captain:
@pakman said in Worst AB Captain:
One inconvenient fact in terms of this debate is that in the most critical 15 minutes when ABs made poor tactical choices SAVEA was the captain.
i can't believe, in the same breath that people are asking for more tactical thought on the field, that those saem people are suggesting Ardie Savea as the captain.
The very definition of tactical inflexibility. Ardie, bless him, is all attack, all the time. So much so that his excited labrador act often results in shitty errors at poor times.
There is so much broken at the moment. But i do think leadership is one of the most important. I just read Ryan having a pop at individual preparation during the week. The skipper should be setting those standards. If he's not, or he is an no one is following, that's a big concern.
But he can learn. Cane has had his time, so Ardie has got a year and a half to improve. Canes has had 2.5 and stil hasn't got it.
How hard is TAKE THE FUCKING THREE
After trying to take the three and having a kicker miss? Or are working out that Ardie's never had the opportunity to develop his leadership skills?
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@taniwharugby said in Worst AB Captain:
@Machpants dunno, Ardie has made some baffling decisions for the Canes too...
Right now, I reckon SW maybe only realistic option, outside that, the cupboard is bare anyway unless you sweep Cane out and put Dalton in, but him coming in at this point to captain...sheesh big ask.
Even Sam does dumb shit. Hell, it was him at the beginning of the second half that fell backwards into the ruck providing the Argies with the easiest exit out of their half. It set the tone for the next 40mins.
