Foster, Robertson etc
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@kiwiinmelb said in Foster:
was watching some interview with Gregor Paul ( no im not a fan ) my you tube automatically picks a relevant video next if I dont select anything , so I watched it anyway for a while
And he was asked about Foster still believing he is on the right track, is he deluded etc ?
And he said coaches can be like gamblers who even though they are losing and they are desperate , cling to the belief the winning streak to turn everything around is just around the corner ,
and i thought fuck , ive never thought about it like that , I think he is right
I see it a little differently (but no less bad). I think he had a plan that wasn’t gaining traction on field. He was being saved by moments but other teams would analyse player positioning and movements and put pressure on. That pressure lead to mistakes and losses.
Coaches and players look back and decide that without the errors they win so we should continue the plan and try stop the errors. Of course the errors don’t stop because other teams keep targeting them even more.
They have deluded themselves into thinking the errors are a cause rather than a symptom -
@kiwiinmelb @Crucial I see it another way
To be at that elite level, you have to have belief in yourself.
In his mind, I expect he has a very clear vision of what he is trying to achieve;
1 - so is the issue that he doesnt have the cattle to achieve it, so is forging on with what he has
2 - He thinks he has the cattle but they are struggling to see it with his clarity, thus the mixed messages, unclear thinking?Or maybe his vision is just not that great but he still believes it and just the players are all not onto yet, but he thinks that he can get it across to them?
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@Windows97 said in Foster:
No doubt a lot been written and I’ll be honest for reasons of mental health I haven’t watched a lot of the All Blacks play this year, however I doubt we’ll beat any team playing away this year and will struggle to beat SA in NZ.
For me what has been lost is the expectation of excellence with-in the All Blacks, culture is a hard thing to define and unless your amongst the camp it’s impossible to know exactly what’s going on but from what is observable and measurable is that the current All Blacks are A – a mix of players playing out of position and B – particular “favorites” are getting chosen regardless of form.
In respects to A it is simply arrogant to assume that a player being played out of position is going to be a world class international, it takes 10,000 hours of doing something to be an expert or to have mastery of a skill. All the skills, nuances, knowledge of playing in a particular spot you simply have to learn over time – great talent can cover up for these at a lower level but currently we have bit-time players going up against seasoned international pros and we are reaping the rewards.
A current list of players in starting spots in the All Blacks all being played out of position are – Angus Ta’avao, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, David Havilli, Reiko Ioane, Will Jordan. That’s 6 out of a possible starting 15 playing out of position.
There’s also a list of favorites that get selected all the time regardless of form, there are all 3 Barrett brothers, Sam Cane and Reiko Ioane.
So to start with players out of position.
Angus Ta’avao – asked by AB management to play both sides of the scrum, was barely adequate at one and is now completely useless at both.
Scott Barrett – inexplicably gets selected at 6, he’s not the best lock in NZ, he’s not the best 6, yet continually selected to play both.
Ardie Savea – he’s a 7, not an 8, not a 6, a 7 – the poor guy doesn’t know where he’s going to play in the loose forward trio from game to game…
David Havilli – outside back to midfield back so been converted from an adequate fullback to an inadequate second 5.
Reiko Ioane – absolute world class winger, terrible center but continually picked there.
Will Jordan – The best fullback in NZ by a wide, wide margin but always on the wing as he can’t get past the “favorite” Scott Barrett.
And the favorites that get picked all the time.
Scott Barret – not the best lock in NZ, nor 6 yet always in the starting line-up.
Beauden Barrett – for some reason refuses to kick goals LIKE HE USED TO which then means you need a goal kicking fullback in the team all the time - which neatly cues...
Jordie Barrett – well behind Will Jordan by miles, but picked because his brother wont kick goals anymore.
Sam Cane – out of form and out of alignment with the rest of the loose forward trio (there’s 3 7’s in the loose forwards picked ffs) Savea is simply better than him.
Reiko Ioane – Class winger, terrible center, literally all he achieves at center is holding up the development of someone who could do a reasonable job.
So what does this have to do with the pursuit of excellence? Well it’s like this
A) The expectation that you have to be the BEST PLAYER IN YOUR POSITION to make the AB’s has gone, just disappeared seemingly, adequacy in several positions seems more important than excellence in one and that lack of excellence this year has been telling.
Certain players can play terribly and yet always make the team, your name appears more important than your form, some players – no matter how well you perform can’t seem to get a break, others always make the team regardless. The expectations that you will perform excellently on the field in order to maintain your starting spot in the AB’s is missing also.Both of these together have formed a culture of be a jack of all trades and master of none and close enough is good enough. This does not create a culture of excellence, excellence in your position or excellence on the field.
This is a management issue – a culture of performance that the coach’s have developed for themselves.
And it’s resulted in players going backwards – instead of spending their time honing their craft they are wasting their time trying to learn a new one. So our players aren’t actually getting better – they’re getting worse, in front of all of our eyes were seeing very talented players going backwards week after week (especially as confidence drops).
This is the inverse of coaching - finding out what a player is good at and teaching them to be better and better at it, it's taking talented players and making them as adequate (not excellent) as possible in several positions
So what to do? Well here’s my “fix”...
Angus Ta’avao – think he’s just gone back to playing one side of the scrum, simply wasted 2 years of his life instead of honing his craft being hopeless at a second, feel sorry for the guy but honestly he’s simply not good enough at the international level.
Scott Barrett - needs to be clearly told to make the starting XV he needs to be the best lock in NZ, or the best number 6, if he’s neither of those the bench he will get.
Ardie Savea – please just play him at 7, please.
Sam Cane – Savea is better, sorry but your terribly out of form and probably not even better than Papilli at the moment, lack of versatility means the bench isn’t much of an option. I’m sorry but you shouldn’t be in the team.
Beauden Barrett – if you want to be the starting 1st 5 kick goals LIKE YOU USED TO, if you’re not going to kick goals then it’s the bench.
David Havilli – expectation placed on him that an adequate super rugby fullback can become an international class midfield back – like really? That’s going to happen, shouldn’t be in the team and time would be better sent developing a specialist 2nd 5 or center.
Reiko Ione – please just put him back on the wing
Will Jordan – please just play him at fullback, has the ability to be a great AB fullback but his time and talent is being frittered away making him a stop gap, fill in player – it’s an absolute shame.
Jordie Barrett – if your after a ponderously slow attacking option from the back he’s your man, hasn’t delivered on the international stage seemingly forever, Will Jordan is simply much better.
So I don’t think we have the wrong players in the squad – just they are utilized very poorly on the field and under current management I can’t see that “aura of excellence” coming back to the AB’s anytime soon. This team reeks of a lack of responsibility and a lack of accountability cue coach’s not turning up to press conferences after a loss? Lack of accountability, cue assistant coach’s been sacked and the head keeping the reigns? Lack of accountability. Cue players being picked week after week regardless of form? Lack of accountability.
I honestly can’t see this team getting out of this malaise anytime soon.
And ultimately this all lies with Foster - sorry NZRU but it really feels like a "jobs for the boys" club which for a brief period of time we got away from, to only fall back in.
Spot on
We’ve had it for decades in Welsh rugby
Namely hookers who are great around the park but who couldn’t hit a cow’s backside with a banjo
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UK-based lurker ... if Scott Robertson will only take the job on his terms, why blame him?
His job market has been global since the late 90s. Afaik Scotland, England, likely Wales and maybe Australia will be in the market for a head coach after the next RWC. Four jobs and very unlikely he's not in contact with a few, probably all of them right now?
If NZR don't see it that way, they can create a 'Robertson law' like they had in 1998-00
NZRFU to discard 'Henry Law' -
@Mario said in Foster:
UK-based lurker ... if Scott Robertson will only take the job on his terms, why blame him?
Quite a few kiwis think a NZ rugby coach's ultimate dream job would be to coach the ABs. But:
Every day, that job's lure, loses more, of its allure. -
@Mario said in Foster:
UK-based lurker ... if Scott Robertson will only take the job on his terms, why blame him?
His job market has been global since the late 90s. Afaik Scotland, England, likely Wales and maybe Australia will be in the market for a head coach after the next RWC. Four jobs and very unlikely he's not in contact with a few, probably all of them right now?
If NZR don't see it that way, they can create a 'Robertson law' like they had in 1998-00
NZRFU to discard 'Henry Law'Who else would we blame for his decision?
As for your second point, he's been very public about his wish to coach the ABs, if he then turns down that opportunity when it's offered then it may not be offered again. That's not saying the door would be completely closed a la the Henry Law but it could harm his future attempts at getting the job.
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This thread is throwing up some curveballs for me.
If Robertson is picked and fails as AB coach, he can never be one again? Wave from Wayne Smith here.
It is ok to go and coach Wales and come back to coach NZ but you can't coach England and come back to coach NZ? Granted, the Welsh sing better and are more likely to appreciate a man who knows his way around sheep, but it is the same darn country! -
@nostrildamus said in Foster:
If Robertson is picked and fails as AB coach, he can never be one again? Wave from Wayne Smith here.
I didn't realise he got another shot as head coach
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@nostrildamus said in Foster:
If Robertson is picked and fails as AB coach, he can never be one again?
Not sure if anyone has actually said that, but I imagine it wouldn't play out too well for his future intentions.
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@nostrildamus said in Foster:
If Robertson is picked and fails as AB coach, he can never be one again? Wave from Wayne Smith here.
I didn't realise he got another shot as head coach
oh is that the critical point?
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@nostrildamus said in Foster:
If Robertson is picked and fails as AB coach, he can never be one again?
Not sure if anyone has actually said that, but I imagine it wouldn't play out too well for his future intentions.
Well I thought Eddie Jones was lost to Australia permanently (Australia are one ranking below us by the way, at the moment)
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@nostrildamus I'm not sure Eddie coached the ABs and failed very early on in his career did he?
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@Bones Wayne Smith also didnt return to the AB set up as Head Coach...
I am surprised Fozzie hasnt suggested what Henry, Hansen and SMith did...shuffle the coaching roles
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@nostrildamus said in Foster:
It is ok to go and coach Wales and come back to coach NZ but you can't coach England and come back to coach NZ?
No one has actually said this, but the context is around him turning down an offer to coach the ABs then going to coach England instead. Henry and Hanson did not turn down the ABs and then go coach Wales.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Bones Wayne Smith also didnt return to the AB set up as Head Coach...
I replied above...ok so you can't fail as head coach of the ABs and come back? Or you can succeed then fail as AB coach and return? (If Hansen put up his hand...)
As to Eddie I thought there were some bridges burned...he was fired in 2005, 2 years from finishing his contract but won 1/9 of their final games if I recall correctly.
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@nostrildamus but that's Australia?
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@nostrildamus said in Foster:
It is ok to go and coach Wales and come back to coach NZ but you can't coach England and come back to coach NZ?
No one has actually said this, but the context is around him turning down an offer to coach the ABs then going to coach England instead. Henry and Hanson did not turn down the ABs and then go coach Wales.
So the below quote actually means one can't turn down ABs, take up the English job then come back because one cannot turn down a fragile and unsure contract for a much better paying one overseas as, once receiving the international experience the NZR allegedly ASKED FOR, is now unemployable by NZR?
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job. -
@Billy-Tell said in Foster:
The guy everyone wants to replace Foster also picks Havili at 12. Just saying...
He also had JB at 12....
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@nostrildamus but that's Australia?
premise 1: you can be a failed AB head coach and return as AB assistant coach
premise 2: you can fail as a head coach in another country and still be sought by them again years later
premise 3: NZ is running out of top players, a winning record, a great reputation and top coaches who are available hence the gap between it and other countries is narrowing
premise 4: nobody seems to have a clue what the NZR are thinking
conclusion: it is all up in the air.
Why Wallabies coach would 'love' Jones return
