Foster, Robertson etc
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
If that's what he thinks then fine, but then he has to acknowledge he may be closing the door on future AB coaching opportunities. I'm not saying I necessarily agree but I think the NZ rugby community (including the powers that be) wont look very fondly on him turning down the ABs to coach England and this will be scrutinised when/if he does eventually apply.
Its all Speculation, as Razor and The NZR have said absolutely nothing about the AB job or Razor has not indicated he is turning down anything to coach England..
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
If that's what he thinks then fine, but then he has to acknowledge he may be closing the door on future AB coaching opportunities. I'm not saying I necessarily agree but I think the NZ rugby community (including the powers that be) wont look very fondly on him turning down the ABs to coach England and this will be scrutinised when/if he does eventually apply.
I’m really not sure where the England line has come from, but the story/rumour is him turning down the role until he can get a full 4 year run. Nothing to do with England, England might happen if he doesn’t get it for 2024, but that’s really irrelevant.
My original post you replied to was responding to a post about a scenario where he takes the England job after 2023.
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
If that's what he thinks then fine, but then he has to acknowledge he may be closing the door on future AB coaching opportunities. I'm not saying I necessarily agree but I think the NZ rugby community (including the powers that be) wont look very fondly on him turning down the ABs to coach England and this will be scrutinised when/if he does eventually apply.
Its all Speculation, as Razor and The NZR have said absolutely nothing about the AB job or Razor has not indicated he is turning down anything to coach England..
Yep. Personally I think Razor would take it if offered.
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
If that's what he thinks then fine, but then he has to acknowledge he may be closing the door on future AB coaching opportunities. I'm not saying I necessarily agree but I think the NZ rugby community (including the powers that be) wont look very fondly on him turning down the ABs to coach England and this will be scrutinised when/if he does eventually apply.
I’m really not sure where the England line has come from, but the story/rumour is him turning down the role until he can get a full 4 year run. Nothing to do with England, England might happen if he doesn’t get it for 2024, but that’s really irrelevant.
My original post you replied to was responding to a post about a scenario where he takes the England job after 2023.
Ha, fair enough. But I think he would only look for that if he didn’t get the ABs job. And good on him
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
I've been reticent to comment given it's all internet supposition and unsubstantiated rumours from people with a history of being wrong.
Robinson could just as likely be unwilling to make a public statement so as not to be seen politicking for the role and undermining Foster. Most people could see that even for a driven individual it would be a poor look.
Having said that, if a person who originally applied for the the role (so we definitely know he wanted it) then decided that it looked all too difficult, or not the right environment for him to take over, is badly misreading the tea leaves and public sentiment. If he's half as good a coach as he believes himself to be, he'd know what elements to address between current performance and what his vision is.
To say no to that opportunity and waltz off to another tier one, well resourced nation to coach against us would invite the level of opprobrium currently directed at Foster. And I'd join in the calls for him to never be considered for the All Black coaching position because in my mind he'd have already shown himself to not have the ticker for it.
He has no international experience to speak of and handing him an entire RWC cycle without review would be the most amateur administrative error NZR could make.
tl;dr version - cometh the hour, cometh the man or fucketh the fuck off.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster:
For the first time that I can remember the AB coach position has become almost political in nature, akin to a struggling political party and daily speculation of a leadership spill.
Huh? Did you forget Deans v Henry and co?
But that was more conventional in that there was a “process” and two candidates going for one job that was actually available. Right now there is no job available.
And I don’t think it was as brutal in terms of the character stuff.
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@antipodean said in Foster:
He has no international experience to speak of and handing him an entire RWC cycle without review would be the most amateur administrative error NZR could make.
tl;dr version - cometh the hour, cometh the man or fucketh the fuck off.That’s what they gave Foster! The supposed review was ‘oh it’s too nasty for him not to know, so let’s give him the next 2 years’
Anyway no one is saying without review, as long as there are agreed KPIs, sign him on until 2027 IMO.
But NZR appear to not have KPIs, just chats about the players feeling good with the coach.
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@antipodean so you’ll add to the supposition 😉
There does need to be a circuit breaker and a couple of assistant changes unfortunately will unlikely be enough.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster:
@ACT-Crusader said in Foster:
For the first time that I can remember the AB coach position has become almost political in nature, akin to a struggling political party and daily speculation of a leadership spill.
Huh? Did you forget Deans v Henry and co?
But that was more conventional in that there was a “process” and two candidates going for one job that was actually available. Right now there is no job available.
And I don’t think it was as brutal in terms of the character stuff.
After the 2007 WC loss Henry has spoken of vitriol that came his and his family's way. So it's nothing new.
Don't like that example, go back to criticism Mitchel got, or Hart. It's always been a contentious job when results have dipped. If anything, it's easier now IMO.
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No doubt a lot been written and I’ll be honest for reasons of mental health I haven’t watched a lot of the All Blacks play this year, however I doubt we’ll beat any team playing away this year and will struggle to beat SA in NZ.
For me what has been lost is the expectation of excellence with-in the All Blacks, culture is a hard thing to define and unless your amongst the camp it’s impossible to know exactly what’s going on but from what is observable and measurable is that the current All Blacks are A – a mix of players playing out of position and B – particular “favorites” are getting chosen regardless of form.
In respects to A it is simply arrogant to assume that a player being played out of position is going to be a world class international, it takes 10,000 hours of doing something to be an expert or to have mastery of a skill. All the skills, nuances, knowledge of playing in a particular spot you simply have to learn over time – great talent can cover up for these at a lower level but currently we have bit-time players going up against seasoned international pros and we are reaping the rewards.
A current list of players in starting spots in the All Blacks all being played out of position are – Angus Ta’avao, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, David Havilli, Reiko Ioane, Will Jordan. That’s 6 out of a possible starting 15 playing out of position.
There’s also a list of favorites that get selected all the time regardless of form, there are all 3 Barrett brothers, Sam Cane and Reiko Ioane.
So to start with players out of position.
Angus Ta’avao – asked by AB management to play both sides of the scrum, was barely adequate at one and is now completely useless at both.
Scott Barrett – inexplicably gets selected at 6, he’s not the best lock in NZ, he’s not the best 6, yet continually selected to play both.
Ardie Savea – he’s a 7, not an 8, not a 6, a 7 – the poor guy doesn’t know where he’s going to play in the loose forward trio from game to game…
David Havilli – outside back to midfield back so been converted from an adequate fullback to an inadequate second 5.
Reiko Ioane – absolute world class winger, terrible center but continually picked there.
Will Jordan – The best fullback in NZ by a wide, wide margin but always on the wing as he can’t get past the “favorite” Scott Barrett.
And the favorites that get picked all the time.
Scott Barret – not the best lock in NZ, nor 6 yet always in the starting line-up.
Beauden Barrett – for some reason refuses to kick goals LIKE HE USED TO which then means you need a goal kicking fullback in the team all the time - which neatly cues...
Jordie Barrett – well behind Will Jordan by miles, but picked because his brother wont kick goals anymore.
Sam Cane – out of form and out of alignment with the rest of the loose forward trio (there’s 3 7’s in the loose forwards picked ffs) Savea is simply better than him.
Reiko Ioane – Class winger, terrible center, literally all he achieves at center is holding up the development of someone who could do a reasonable job.
So what does this have to do with the pursuit of excellence? Well it’s like this
A) The expectation that you have to be the BEST PLAYER IN YOUR POSITION to make the AB’s has gone, just disappeared seemingly, adequacy in several positions seems more important than excellence in one and that lack of excellence this year has been telling.
Certain players can play terribly and yet always make the team, your name appears more important than your form, some players – no matter how well you perform can’t seem to get a break, others always make the team regardless. The expectations that you will perform excellently on the field in order to maintain your starting spot in the AB’s is missing also.Both of these together have formed a culture of be a jack of all trades and master of none and close enough is good enough. This does not create a culture of excellence, excellence in your position or excellence on the field.
This is a management issue – a culture of performance that the coach’s have developed for themselves.
And it’s resulted in players going backwards – instead of spending their time honing their craft they are wasting their time trying to learn a new one. So our players aren’t actually getting better – they’re getting worse, in front of all of our eyes were seeing very talented players going backwards week after week (especially as confidence drops).
This is the inverse of coaching - finding out what a player is good at and teaching them to be better and better at it, it's taking talented players and making them as adequate (not excellent) as possible in several positions
So what to do? Well here’s my “fix”...
Angus Ta’avao – think he’s just gone back to playing one side of the scrum, simply wasted 2 years of his life instead of honing his craft being hopeless at a second, feel sorry for the guy but honestly he’s simply not good enough at the international level.
Scott Barrett - needs to be clearly told to make the starting XV he needs to be the best lock in NZ, or the best number 6, if he’s neither of those the bench he will get.
Ardie Savea – please just play him at 7, please.
Sam Cane – Savea is better, sorry but your terribly out of form and probably not even better than Papilli at the moment, lack of versatility means the bench isn’t much of an option. I’m sorry but you shouldn’t be in the team.
Beauden Barrett – if you want to be the starting 1st 5 kick goals LIKE YOU USED TO, if you’re not going to kick goals then it’s the bench.
David Havilli – expectation placed on him that an adequate super rugby fullback can become an international class midfield back – like really? That’s going to happen, shouldn’t be in the team and time would be better sent developing a specialist 2nd 5 or center.
Reiko Ione – please just put him back on the wing
Will Jordan – please just play him at fullback, has the ability to be a great AB fullback but his time and talent is being frittered away making him a stop gap, fill in player – it’s an absolute shame.
Jordie Barrett – if your after a ponderously slow attacking option from the back he’s your man, hasn’t delivered on the international stage seemingly forever, Will Jordan is simply much better.
So I don’t think we have the wrong players in the squad – just they are utilized very poorly on the field and under current management I can’t see that “aura of excellence” coming back to the AB’s anytime soon. This team reeks of a lack of responsibility and a lack of accountability cue coach’s not turning up to press conferences after a loss? Lack of accountability, cue assistant coach’s been sacked and the head keeping the reigns? Lack of accountability. Cue players being picked week after week regardless of form? Lack of accountability.
I honestly can’t see this team getting out of this malaise anytime soon.
And ultimately this all lies with Foster - sorry NZRU but it really feels like a "jobs for the boys" club which for a brief period of time we got away from, to only fall back in.
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@Windows97 said in Foster:
Both of these together have formed a culture of be a jack of all trades and master of none and close enough is good enough. This does not create a culture of excellence, excellence in your position or excellence on the field.
Great line. There's a lot in your post I disagree with, but good work getting it out there.
Check your typo by the way - JB is at fullback holding back Will Jordan (not SB). And who could forget Jordie on the wing.
So many of these problems come with forwards not getting go forward.
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@No-Quarter said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
But fair enough too, he is well in his rights to tell NZR to foxtrot oscar until after this year and/or RWC cycle
The optics of Robertson not getting involved when the ABs are suffering is horrific. If true, this will not play well with people, myself included. Opportunities come up when they come up, it's not always the right time.
Hell, it's a 12 month honeymoon I reckon, and a chance to start building for post-23
Only if NZR give him a gaurantee of RWC 2027, otherwise he is shooting himself in the foot. Knowing NZR they are not offering that. Cos they are fluffybunnies. But NZR are probably offering a contract til the RWC, with all sorts of clauses. After they fucked up Foster contract by not actually putting any performance clauses in it, they probably are now - thus Razor gets the shitty end of the stick and rightly says fuck you
There's no way NZR should be offering Robertson a contract through to 2027, that would be madness given Robertson's lack of experience coaching at test level. I'm happy for him to take over now (if Schmidt doesn't want it), and be given until 2025 to prove himself. That's more than enough time to prove his worth.
I said earlier that Razor basically has a 5 year appointment, but I agree that 2 years post 2023 is what he should be given (this year and next should be a free pass given the circumstances). But as old mate @Victor-Meldrew says post 2023 we need to see some
rapidimprovement.However, this may be the sticking point for Razor - we’ve seen some reports he wants a full 4 years to work his magic but understandably NZR and the general public should have reservations about this.
Just getting the NZR to select employ and retain based on improvement would be a significant step forward. After all, we wouldn't expect to see MAGIC improvements now would we?
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@Machpants said in Foster:
Jeez I'm bored, it would be great to get something concrete from NZR
When's the team...
Something else to talk about!
maybe he goes wild and picks a mobile, attacking side? Will J at fullback? RM at 10, Rieko back on the wing. Drop Cane, a loose trio of savea/sotutu/AIoane.
And then the fastest props and locks we can get, with ST at hooker.Just go out and try and run all day. Enjoy the sunshine, just create some chaos
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Does anyone know why JB doesn't look as good at FB as last year? Slower, less decisive? Now it has been raised, he hasn't really been an attacking force at FB has he?
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@nostrildamus has been playing 12
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@kidcalder said in Foster:
@nzzp Im hoping that he does
Tupou
Dalton
Sotutu
Fakatava
RM
RTS
Goodhue
Leicester
Jordan at 15
Go out throwing it all in, attack with pace. The other blokes seem tired and weary- give the youngesters a chance.That'll be impressive because he plays for Oz.
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@nostrildamus said in Foster:
Does anyone know why JB doesn't look as good at FB as last year? Slower, less decisive? Now it has been raised, he hasn't really been an attacking force at FB has he?
Has he ever ? I mean we’ve had Osbourne, Cullen, Muliaina, Dagg and Smith and I think he’s easily sixth best of that bunch.
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@nostrildamus said in Foster:
Does anyone know why JB doesn't look as good at FB as last year? Slower, less decisive? Now it has been raised, he hasn't really been an attacking force at FB has he?
Has he ever ? I mean we’ve had Osbourne, Cullen, Muliaina, Dagg and Smith and I think he’s easily sixth best of that bunch.
DMac even...well at least last year JB was solid at the back, great under the high ball, decisive boot..this year he mostly just looks like a placeholder. They used him a bit as a crash bunny initially but I don't recall much impact there...
