Springboks v All Blacks I
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@Crucial said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
But we don't want to. We get zero advantage from it. Certain teams do and they are playing it to the max with the support of WR NH administrators as they can combat these SH fluffybunnies that want to play a fast game.
that may be so, but we are giving other teams an advantage by not doing so and utilising whatever leniency the ref is affording our opposition.
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@taniwharugby said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Crucial said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
But we don't want to. We get zero advantage from it. Certain teams do and they are playing it to the max with the support of WR NH administrators as they can combat these SH fluffybunnies that want to play a fast game.
that may be so, but we are giving other teams an advantage by not doing so and utilising whatever leniency the ref is affording our opposition.
How does our doing it take away their advantage? It would add to it as they would get even more breathers.
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@Crucial well if we had the resources we could pick different players to suit a slower game, but the fact we are doing nothing, is part of the problem (not just to this)
We have no adaptability, no ref management, no game management, this all sits with the coaching, captain and leadership group
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@taniwharugby said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Crucial well if we had the resources we could pick different players to suit a slower game, but the fact we are doing nothing, is part of the problem (not just to this)
We have no adaptability, no ref management, no game management, this all sits with the coaching, captain and leadership group
I'll ignore second part but for the first point we would have to make a generation change of player types and playing style (just as the NH did) to 'find' a load of huge power players. It's not how we play school/club/NPC or Super.
It's not a thing that can change quickly and I don't think we really want to.
We have to find ways to beat these teams within our 'DNA' just as they did to us.
I get that we haven't done a good job of finding that solution but we also don't want to fall into the trap SA themselves did a few years back of trying to change their style to a like meets like one.
What we need is an emphasis on making their styles work to our advantage. Better ways and coaching around manipulating the rush defence. Better ways to suck charging rhinos into going off their feet and being penalised. Better tactical kicking and chasing. -
@Crucial It appears to me we need to keep the ball in play for longer periods which is easier said than done when you are going backwards and giving up the ball to Marx. You need very good structure and go forward to hold onto the pill for long periods. We did try a few times to recycle but one off runners got pounded and we went backwards. We need a coach that can emphasise our strengths which Foster clearly cannot do.
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@Crucial totally agree. We can't just try and be everyone else, that'll never work
The problem from my ignorant chair seems to be ignoring the rest of the world, and assuming that what we did 7 years ago would still work.
We're trying to play a game that not only doesn't exist, but even if it did, won't work. The game is slower, and won't be speeding up. But on top of this, the best international teams now have benches as good as their starting sides, so the talent advantage in the last quarter isn't there. We can't just gas teams and let our strike players run at them in the last 20, but that's what we are trying to do. It's why we are allergic to kicking the ball out. And are happy to play a thousand phases that don't go anywhere. It's all with the mindset that it will pay off later, despite all the fucking evidence it absolutely does not. And even if it does, in the meantime we are slipping backwards on the score board.
What also seems to be forgotten is, that 2015 side we all remember so beautifully, was packed full of all-time players. But that's not the main point. The main point was it was full of all-time players, and did the basics very very well. Very pragmatic, played little in their own territory, were super accurate in the tackle and the ruck. And contained the last good tactical kicker in NZ rugby at 10
Are we a bit down on talent? yes. But are we hamstringing ourselves with the way we are desperate to play the game? Also yes (remember laughing at Cheika and the "Australian way"?). We're ignoring a few fundamentals and it's looking our players look worse than they really are.
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@mariner4life said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Crucial totally agree. We can't just try and be everyone else, that'll never work
The problem from my ignorant chair seems to be ignoring the rest of the world, and assuming that what we did 7 years ago would still work.
We're trying to play a game that not only doesn't exist, but even if it did, won't work. The game is slower, and won't be speeding up. But on top of this, the best international teams now have benches as good as their starting sides, so the talent advantage in the last quarter isn't there. We can't just gas teams and let our strike players run at them in the last 20, but that's what we are trying to do. It's why we are allergic to kicking the ball out. And are happy to play a thousand phases that don't go anywhere. It's all with the mindset that it will pay off later, despite all the fucking evidence it absolutely does not. And even if it does, in the meantime we are slipping backwards on the score board.
What also seems to be forgotten is, that 2015 side we all remember so beautifully, was packed full of all-time players. But that's not the main point. The main point was it was full of all-time players, and did the basics very very well. Very pragmatic, played little in their own territory, were super accurate in the tackle and the ruck. And contained the last good tactical kicker in NZ rugby at 10
Are we a bit down on talent? yes. But are we hamstringing ourselves with the way we are desperate to play the game? Also yes (remember laughing at Cheika and the "Australian way"?). We're ignoring a few fundamentals and it's looking our players look worse than they really are.
Fucking nailed it.
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Our complete lack of ability to dominate field position is a real worry. With BB we rarely if ever exit to halfway, often just outside our 22. We rarely kick it out in their 22. If you watch Ireland, they are almost methodical in the way they exit and pretty much reach halfway every time.
I think Warren Gatland said the biggest battle is the battle for halfway, win that and use territory and aggressive defence to build pressure and cause your opponent to make a mistake or get penalised.
We got 1 penalty goal vs Ireland in 3 games, just 1 which is crazy and shows just how disciplined they were and how we struggled to dominate them in their half.
We really just need to get back to basics and try nothing fancy until we earn the right.
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@chimoaus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Our complete lack of ability to dominate field position is a real worry. With BB we rarely if ever exit to halfway, often just outside our 22. We rarely kick it out in their 22. If you watch Ireland, they are almost methodical in the way they exit and pretty much reach halfway every time.
I think Warren Gatland said the biggest battle is the battle for halfway, win that and use territory and aggressive defence to build pressure and cause your opponent to make a mistake or get penalised.
We got 1 penalty goal vs Ireland in 3 games, just 1 which is crazy and shows just how disciplined they were and how we struggled to dominate them in their half.
We really just need to get back to basics and try nothing fancy until we earn the right.
Here's the thing, BB can punt the ball quite well. But team tactics don't call for it. The tactics are all wrong right now. Put away the box kick, start kicking for territory out of our own half, you know, basic rugby shit
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@chimoaus You mean play test rugby.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@chimoaus You mean play test rugby.
Kind of should be NZR mission statement really.
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@mariner4life whilst it has absolutely no consequence on game play or results, it’s interesting how many fans still think with an old way of thinking as well.
How many times do we hear the “run at/let loose at tiring defences in the last 20”. Those days are gone and making selections on that basis is so 90s and early 00s. Not saying the ABs are doing that, but plenty of fans still think it’s vital, when the reality is so different. Rucks need to be hit, proper kicking and passing still needs to be made, scrums need to be won - yes in the last 20 too.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Rucks need to be hit, proper kicking and passing still needs to be made, scrums need to be won - yes in the last 20 too.
Our ruck work is inaccurate, and our decision making is poor. Early in the second half, our cleaners were away from the ball - so Kitshoff just wandered in and contested it, and won a turnover. It's jut basic rugby; the Bokke were protecting their ball brilliantly
That said, I thought the ref was a bit random and all over the place. All Blacks got frustrated with some of the rulings - but struggled to adapt.
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@nzzp said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@ACT-Crusader said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Rucks need to be hit, proper kicking and passing still needs to be made, scrums need to be won - yes in the last 20 too.
Our ruck work is inaccurate, and our decision making is poor. Early in the second half, our cleaners were away from the ball - so Kitshoff just wandered in and contested it, and won a turnover. It's jut basic rugby; the Bokke were protecting their ball brilliantly
That said, I thought the ref was a bit random and all over the place. All Blacks got frustrated with some of the rulings - but struggled to adapt.
Maybe they'd given up by then as they knew that Gus would award a penalty to Marx even if he was lying on his back 50 metres away from the ruck.
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@Nepia said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@nzzp said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@ACT-Crusader said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Rucks need to be hit, proper kicking and passing still needs to be made, scrums need to be won - yes in the last 20 too.
Our ruck work is inaccurate, and our decision making is poor. Early in the second half, our cleaners were away from the ball - so Kitshoff just wandered in and contested it, and won a turnover. It's jut basic rugby; the Bokke were protecting their ball brilliantly
That said, I thought the ref was a bit random and all over the place. All Blacks got frustrated with some of the rulings - but struggled to adapt.
Maybe they'd given up by then as they knew that Gus would award a penalty to Marx even if he was lying on his back 50 metres away from the ruck.
Its all about pictures for the ref isn't it, it all happens so quick, and Marx presents a pretty easy picture for the ref. A good captain would have a word with the Ref and say they are not giving us a clear release making it hard. Or the 6 was laying all over the ball. I think a good captain needs to read the game and get in the ear of the ref early.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@mariner4life whilst it has absolutely no consequence on game play or results, it’s interesting how many fans still think with an old way of thinking as well.
How many times do we hear the “run at/let loose at tiring defences in the last 20”. Those days are gone and making selections on that basis is so 90s and early 00s. Not saying the ABs are doing that, but plenty of fans still think it’s vital, when the reality is so different. Rucks need to be hit, proper kicking and passing still needs to be made, scrums need to be won - yes in the last 20 too.
to be fair, AB teams were very open about this being the plan for a long time, so it sort of becomes DNA when people talk about them. And in all reality very few people, including us, really understand the inner workings of a modern elite level rugby team. I imagine it is very very different from the game we played. So we fall back to what we know when trying to make sense of it.
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@mariner4life I still think it came down to us knowing how to exploit any physical or athletic advantage the players had, even during that successful period of using our bench.
I agree with @Duluth, we need to play a little deeper to give ourselves a bit of space and time. Get the ball in our backs hands or time for more effective kicking.
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@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@chimoaus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Our complete lack of ability to dominate field position is a real worry. With BB we rarely if ever exit to halfway, often just outside our 22. We rarely kick it out in their 22. If you watch Ireland, they are almost methodical in the way they exit and pretty much reach halfway every time.
I think Warren Gatland said the biggest battle is the battle for halfway, win that and use territory and aggressive defence to build pressure and cause your opponent to make a mistake or get penalised.
We got 1 penalty goal vs Ireland in 3 games, just 1 which is crazy and shows just how disciplined they were and how we struggled to dominate them in their half.
We really just need to get back to basics and try nothing fancy until we earn the right.
Here's the thing, BB can punt the ball quite well. But team tactics don't call for it. The tactics are all wrong right now. Put away the box kick, start kicking for territory out of our own half, you know, basic rugby shit
Yep, when Mo'unga comes on and puts up a midfield bomb from our own 22 you start to realise the problem is tactics not 10s
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Sadly for us the global rules and refereeing emphases are being lead in a different direction to what Super rugby is teaching players do instinctively. It is about tries and bonus points there which runs with the AB flavour of the past few decades of running the opposition off their feet with superior fitness and handling and running skills. It just feels like top international rugby is a beast that we are less familiar with than our European opponents now.
Thank goodness the AB XV is being resurrected with a northern tour.
Perhaps NZ Rugby has been remiss in expecting continued dominance via traditional means while the rest of the world tries to conjure up ways of gaining the upper hand. -
@ARHS said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Perhaps NZ Rugby has been remiss in expecting continued dominance via traditional means while the rest of the world tries to conjure up ways of gaining the upper hand.
All the NH sides went away after their 2015 debacle and got better. Not just at international level either - their club comps are outstanding.
We haven't progressed - if anything, have gone way backwards.
