Springboks v All Blacks I
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@pakman that’s the beauty of the game, isn’t it? Getting away with as much as you can before the ref steps in. If they don’t blow the whistle then push the envelope a bit more. I saw that block at the time. I love how the SA pundits are mentioning it too. Can imagine the Boks are wishing they’d shut up about it! The refs will watch the game back and might have some ideas like the second game against Ireland with the ABs cleaning.
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@game_film but will they?
The Irish were doing it, especially at times when the ABs were trying to, or needed to keep the speed of the game up, yet nothing was really done about it.
There needs to be a tweak to the rules, otherwise it is too easy to exploit.
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@pakman said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
If ref's think that's alright, then we need to copy accordingly!
Gardner is a ref that lets a lot of things go. The breakdowns in particular tend to be a free for all.
I have no idea why some people rate him highly. He has a good demeanour with the players but that's it
Players should always be at their most cynical when he's in control. This AB side doesn't adjust well to variables like that
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@nzzp said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@BartMan said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Something needs to be done with deliberate slowing play at any rate!
I agree.
But I'm on the ABs on this one - if our game relies on the ref cooperating to speed up games, and this doesn't ever seem to happen, who's at fault? FOSTER of course,
but seriously, the coaching naivety seems to be carried onto the field by the players. @SidBarret said - looks more lik the ABs are playing for stats than effect.
I am blaming Foster cos the games ARE NOT fast. As much as we would like them to be, they are not. Haven't been for ages at Intl level. So basing your gameplan around 2015 run the fuckers off their feet with our awesomeness is dumb. Teams have nullified that and a coach with half a brain would realise we need to move on. Sure, at management level, coaching metting etc, push for that. But it is not happening so come an play with a plan for the really real world. We don't, cos Foster is a really nice guy, cuddly, and a dreamer. We need a nasty realpolitik leader. Razor, despite all his breakdancing and surfin, knows when to leave the ideals behind and fucking mucle it up - play the ref - win however way possible. You can see it in how the saders play, more like the teams that are smacking the ABs arse
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@Machpants I imagine if the ABs start milking time as other teams do, WR will make a rule change quick smart!
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@taniwharugby said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Machpants I imagine if the ABs start milking time as other teams do, WR will make a rule change quick smart!
But we don't want to. We get zero advantage from it. Certain teams do and they are playing it to the max with the support of WR NH administrators as they can combat these SH fluffybunnies that want to play a fast game.
One for the other thread but partly why I have zero support for the NH take of SH not caring about player safety. Every chance to swing the game in favour of size and collision they have taken with open arms.
The two biggest things we need to get in the refs ear about are 'not releasing' before the jackler puts hands on (or say they want reciprocity) and jumpers without genuine chance of a catch. It's not sour grapes as we were outplayed everywhere but those to things helped SA no end to apply their dominance elsewhere.
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@taniwharugby I think it’s one of those things when there’s 10 things going on at the breakdown and it’s a matter of what is their focus that day. Figure out what the ref is/isn’t doing and then play to that.
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@Crucial said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
But we don't want to. We get zero advantage from it. Certain teams do and they are playing it to the max with the support of WR NH administrators as they can combat these SH fluffybunnies that want to play a fast game.
that may be so, but we are giving other teams an advantage by not doing so and utilising whatever leniency the ref is affording our opposition.
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@taniwharugby said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Crucial said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
But we don't want to. We get zero advantage from it. Certain teams do and they are playing it to the max with the support of WR NH administrators as they can combat these SH fluffybunnies that want to play a fast game.
that may be so, but we are giving other teams an advantage by not doing so and utilising whatever leniency the ref is affording our opposition.
How does our doing it take away their advantage? It would add to it as they would get even more breathers.
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@Crucial well if we had the resources we could pick different players to suit a slower game, but the fact we are doing nothing, is part of the problem (not just to this)
We have no adaptability, no ref management, no game management, this all sits with the coaching, captain and leadership group
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@taniwharugby said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Crucial well if we had the resources we could pick different players to suit a slower game, but the fact we are doing nothing, is part of the problem (not just to this)
We have no adaptability, no ref management, no game management, this all sits with the coaching, captain and leadership group
I'll ignore second part but for the first point we would have to make a generation change of player types and playing style (just as the NH did) to 'find' a load of huge power players. It's not how we play school/club/NPC or Super.
It's not a thing that can change quickly and I don't think we really want to.
We have to find ways to beat these teams within our 'DNA' just as they did to us.
I get that we haven't done a good job of finding that solution but we also don't want to fall into the trap SA themselves did a few years back of trying to change their style to a like meets like one.
What we need is an emphasis on making their styles work to our advantage. Better ways and coaching around manipulating the rush defence. Better ways to suck charging rhinos into going off their feet and being penalised. Better tactical kicking and chasing. -
@Crucial It appears to me we need to keep the ball in play for longer periods which is easier said than done when you are going backwards and giving up the ball to Marx. You need very good structure and go forward to hold onto the pill for long periods. We did try a few times to recycle but one off runners got pounded and we went backwards. We need a coach that can emphasise our strengths which Foster clearly cannot do.
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@Crucial totally agree. We can't just try and be everyone else, that'll never work
The problem from my ignorant chair seems to be ignoring the rest of the world, and assuming that what we did 7 years ago would still work.
We're trying to play a game that not only doesn't exist, but even if it did, won't work. The game is slower, and won't be speeding up. But on top of this, the best international teams now have benches as good as their starting sides, so the talent advantage in the last quarter isn't there. We can't just gas teams and let our strike players run at them in the last 20, but that's what we are trying to do. It's why we are allergic to kicking the ball out. And are happy to play a thousand phases that don't go anywhere. It's all with the mindset that it will pay off later, despite all the fucking evidence it absolutely does not. And even if it does, in the meantime we are slipping backwards on the score board.
What also seems to be forgotten is, that 2015 side we all remember so beautifully, was packed full of all-time players. But that's not the main point. The main point was it was full of all-time players, and did the basics very very well. Very pragmatic, played little in their own territory, were super accurate in the tackle and the ruck. And contained the last good tactical kicker in NZ rugby at 10
Are we a bit down on talent? yes. But are we hamstringing ourselves with the way we are desperate to play the game? Also yes (remember laughing at Cheika and the "Australian way"?). We're ignoring a few fundamentals and it's looking our players look worse than they really are.
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@mariner4life said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Crucial totally agree. We can't just try and be everyone else, that'll never work
The problem from my ignorant chair seems to be ignoring the rest of the world, and assuming that what we did 7 years ago would still work.
We're trying to play a game that not only doesn't exist, but even if it did, won't work. The game is slower, and won't be speeding up. But on top of this, the best international teams now have benches as good as their starting sides, so the talent advantage in the last quarter isn't there. We can't just gas teams and let our strike players run at them in the last 20, but that's what we are trying to do. It's why we are allergic to kicking the ball out. And are happy to play a thousand phases that don't go anywhere. It's all with the mindset that it will pay off later, despite all the fucking evidence it absolutely does not. And even if it does, in the meantime we are slipping backwards on the score board.
What also seems to be forgotten is, that 2015 side we all remember so beautifully, was packed full of all-time players. But that's not the main point. The main point was it was full of all-time players, and did the basics very very well. Very pragmatic, played little in their own territory, were super accurate in the tackle and the ruck. And contained the last good tactical kicker in NZ rugby at 10
Are we a bit down on talent? yes. But are we hamstringing ourselves with the way we are desperate to play the game? Also yes (remember laughing at Cheika and the "Australian way"?). We're ignoring a few fundamentals and it's looking our players look worse than they really are.
Fucking nailed it.
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Our complete lack of ability to dominate field position is a real worry. With BB we rarely if ever exit to halfway, often just outside our 22. We rarely kick it out in their 22. If you watch Ireland, they are almost methodical in the way they exit and pretty much reach halfway every time.
I think Warren Gatland said the biggest battle is the battle for halfway, win that and use territory and aggressive defence to build pressure and cause your opponent to make a mistake or get penalised.
We got 1 penalty goal vs Ireland in 3 games, just 1 which is crazy and shows just how disciplined they were and how we struggled to dominate them in their half.
We really just need to get back to basics and try nothing fancy until we earn the right.
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@chimoaus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Our complete lack of ability to dominate field position is a real worry. With BB we rarely if ever exit to halfway, often just outside our 22. We rarely kick it out in their 22. If you watch Ireland, they are almost methodical in the way they exit and pretty much reach halfway every time.
I think Warren Gatland said the biggest battle is the battle for halfway, win that and use territory and aggressive defence to build pressure and cause your opponent to make a mistake or get penalised.
We got 1 penalty goal vs Ireland in 3 games, just 1 which is crazy and shows just how disciplined they were and how we struggled to dominate them in their half.
We really just need to get back to basics and try nothing fancy until we earn the right.
Here's the thing, BB can punt the ball quite well. But team tactics don't call for it. The tactics are all wrong right now. Put away the box kick, start kicking for territory out of our own half, you know, basic rugby shit
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@chimoaus You mean play test rugby.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@chimoaus You mean play test rugby.
Kind of should be NZR mission statement really.
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@mariner4life whilst it has absolutely no consequence on game play or results, it’s interesting how many fans still think with an old way of thinking as well.
How many times do we hear the “run at/let loose at tiring defences in the last 20”. Those days are gone and making selections on that basis is so 90s and early 00s. Not saying the ABs are doing that, but plenty of fans still think it’s vital, when the reality is so different. Rucks need to be hit, proper kicking and passing still needs to be made, scrums need to be won - yes in the last 20 too.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Rucks need to be hit, proper kicking and passing still needs to be made, scrums need to be won - yes in the last 20 too.
Our ruck work is inaccurate, and our decision making is poor. Early in the second half, our cleaners were away from the ball - so Kitshoff just wandered in and contested it, and won a turnover. It's jut basic rugby; the Bokke were protecting their ball brilliantly
That said, I thought the ref was a bit random and all over the place. All Blacks got frustrated with some of the rulings - but struggled to adapt.
