All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
This.
I've just watched the last 5 minutes of the 2013 Ireland game when we won in the dying minutes. The contrast in managing the pace of the game to eliminate errors compared to Saturday is there to see - along with the body-language, player communication and decision-making. Cool heads and on-field management more than just raw talent.
PS: Check out Nonu calmly waiting for a bobbling ball to come to him rather than snatching it, running a perfect angle to take out 3 Irish defenders and then recycling the ball quickly. Object lesson in Rugby smarts.
Ireland learnt lots from this game too. If played now, you're damn sure they would have disrupted NZ's flow and given away a penalty.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
This.
I've just watched the last 5 minutes of the 2013 Ireland game when we won in the dying minutes. The contrast in managing the pace of the game to eliminate errors compared to Saturday is there to see - along with the body-language, player communication and decision-making. Cool heads and on-field management more than just raw talent.
PS: Check out Nonu calmly waiting for a bobbling ball to come to him rather than snatching it, running a perfect angle to take out 3 Irish defenders and then recycling the ball quickly. Object lesson in Rugby smarts.
Everyone did their jobs, and it was only Coles at the end that made the risky pass. That team trusted each other. That comes with experience of playing together and combinations. they trusted the process/system and reaped the rewards.
It was an insane passage of play.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
That team trusted each other. That comes with experience of playing together and combinations. they trusted the process/system and reaped the rewards.
The point I think I'm making is that trust didn't just come from playing together or being together a long time. IIRC from reading McCaw's book, building trust and communication was a deliberate exercise by the players themselves.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
That team trusted each other. That comes with experience of playing together and combinations. they trusted the process/system and reaped the rewards.
The point I think I'm making is that trust didn't just come from playing together or being together a long time. IIRC from reading McCaw's book, building trust and communication was a deliberate exercise by the players themselves.
Maybe there's too much communication now?
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants Irish missed more tackles than us, despite us having to make twice as many.
TBH I think plenty of those stats are not surprising, when you look at some of our matches over the years, but we kicked away twice as much and passed half as much, Rucks won - Ireland 132, NZ 57
We had twice as many linebreaks and more off loads, yet alot was ineffective.
I guess we generally do more with less ball. Sometimes I'd like to see us grind down an opposition
Do we have the cattle for that?
Oz showed a team could spank Boks without grinding them down.
Against Poms and Boks, and maybe Paddies/Frogs I think we need to achieve broad parity in set piece (which we have been) and 40% plus in breakdown.
We select athletic locks, on the basis that around the sixty the wheels will fall off oppo fatties. Recent issue has been time wasting and, more poignant, long TMO delays, which have meant their fatties aren't getting worn down as quickly.
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Now watched Q3, which was IRE 15 -- ABs 0.
AB forwards fine in general. Exception tackling close to ruck. Taylor missed direct tackle in lead up to both Irish tries. Bladder's tackle ineffective two out in first try. Some signs of interference by Irish 19 in ruck before second one. Nepo also misssed key one in lead up to first.
Mainly good kicking, especially by Jordie (excepting the horrible scuff). Reece's returns from Irish kick much more ropey -- did Irish target him?
In contrast, backs made at least three largely unforced errors, all from good ball:
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Jordans 'non knock on' drop (eyes off ball)
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Rieko jerky pass behind Jordie (probably ought to have held on)
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RM pass to flat footed Havili after AB lineout short throw on Irish ten metres. Runs into Aki/Dorris/Sexton and loses ball. No forwards close enough to save. RM positioned more behind pod than lateral. Loopy TJP pass. No idea what the play was meant to be.
All these were massive momentum killers.
Also dicking around by TJP in our 22 at around the 50 minute mark. Ended with lineout on our 30 and soon after to second try.
Another unsympathetic TJP pass to Nepo's shoulder was knocked on, leading to 50:22. We secure ball (illegally) and Havili misses a must make touch. He finshes off with an offside tackle on Gibson Park at the ruck. Sexton converts.
Not sure Ireland were that dominant per se, but to give them their due they surgically punished us for our error proneness!
Not sure the coaching team can be blamed for that much of this.
That said, I'd have pulled TJP!
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
This.
I've just watched the last 5 minutes of the 2013 Ireland game when we won in the dying minutes. The contrast in managing the pace of the game to eliminate errors compared to Saturday is there to see - along with the body-language, player communication and decision-making. Cool heads and on-field management more than just raw talent.
PS: Check out Nonu calmly waiting for a bobbling ball to come to him rather than snatching it, running a perfect angle to take out 3 Irish defenders and then recycling the ball quickly. Object lesson in Rugby smarts.
Richie McCaw had high standards. It rubbed off on everyone around him. No one wanted to let him down. I wonder if he shouldn't be invited to be part of AB coaching set up next season.
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@sparky said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Richie McCaw had high standards. It rubbed off on everyone around him. No one wanted to let him down. I wonder if he shouldn't be invited to be part of AB coaching set up next season.
Lots of captains in the last year can't have helped, though I think Ardie & Sam have done a pretty good job.
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@victor-meldrew Ireland also a better side now than then.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
If you don’t understand that don’t keep asking me stupid questions.
In what way is querying the quality of Foster's involvement with the AB's since 2012 a stupid question? It's only what you have been doing.
It's a debate on whether replacing Foster with Robertson is a magic solution to the the current problems. Calm down.
You have your opinion I have mine .
Foster never has been a decent head coach with the ability to create a consistent team that is shown in his record as a Coach at the Chiefs and now with the ABs .
His record speaks for itself. -
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Hansen should hae left, post Lions debacle (as planned) the Foster would’ve got his 2 years leading upto the RWC, which is more than enough to prove he’s got it or not (obviously not). Instead the inbreds at NZR have kept both Hansen and Foster on for 2 more years than they should have had. Everyone goes stale, even the greatest, like Titch at 7s. The key is moving on early enough, Hansen had the right idea but 2016 went to his (and NZRs) head.
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@sparky said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew Ireland also a better side now than then.
That's probably Foster's fault too....
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@machpants said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Hansen should hae left, post Lions debacle (as planned) the Foster would’ve got his 2 years leading upto the RWC, which is more than enough to prove he’s got it or not (obviously not). Instead the inbreds at NZR have kept both Hansen and Foster on for 2 more years than they should have had. Everyone goes stale, even the greatest, like Titch at 7s. The key is moving on early enough, Hansen had the right idea but 2016 went to his (and NZRs) head.
Pretty hard to disagree with that. And the problems are much deeper than just the Head coach. a bit of smugness at the top (and not just the AB management) seems to have crept in after 2015 which was hidden for a couple of years.
Ironically, there's an Irish connection as the wheels seemed to start coming off in Chicago in 2016 when we played Kaino at lock. Remember watching Hansen talking about how it wouldn't be a problem and thinking he was ay too confident.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Hansen should hae left, post Lions debacle (as planned) the Foster would’ve got his 2 years leading upto the RWC, which is more than enough to prove he’s got it or not (obviously not). Instead the inbreds at NZR have kept both Hansen and Foster on for 2 more years than they should have had. Everyone goes stale, even the greatest, like Titch at 7s. The key is moving on early enough, Hansen had the right idea but 2016 went to his (and NZRs) head.
Pretty hard to disagree with that. And the problems are much deeper than just the Head coach. a bit of smugness at the top (and not just the AB management) seems to have crept in after 2015 which was hidden for a couple of years.
Ironically, there's an Irish connection as the wheels seemed to start coming off in Chicago in 2016 when we played Kaino at lock. Remember watching Hansen talking about how it wouldn't be a problem and thinking he was ay too confident.
Third Lions test. If Pointe makes the correct call, ABs are given the chance to kick and squeak a 2-1 series win. Maintaining (just) the winning mentality. I think that series did a bit of damage psychologically to NZ players and coaches.
Compare that with the Lions series this year where SA were given the chance to win the series with a late kick. Winning that series has given the Boks more belief.
A drawn series will always feel a loss for the home union.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Third Lions test. If Pointe makes the correct call, ABs are given the chance to kick and squeak a 2-1 series win. Maintaining (just) the winning mentality. I think that series did a bit of damage psychologically to NZ players and coaches
I thought the loss of the 2nd Test was the killer, particularly after we held onto the lead for some time. We came out playing like a house on fire in the 3rd Test but didn't get the points and allowed ourselves to panic a bit.
We've looked a bit fragile under pressure since then.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Third Lions test. If Pointe makes the correct call, ABs are given the chance to kick and squeak a 2-1 series win. Maintaining (just) the winning mentality. I think that series did a bit of damage psychologically to NZ players and coaches
I thought the loss of the 2nd Test was the killer, particularly after we held onto the lead for some time. We came out playing like a house on fire in the 3rd Test but didn't get the points and allowed ourselves to panic a bit.
I thought it was quite incredible that the ABs held out with a man down for as long as they did in 2nd test. As a result of the red the ABs played a forward dominated gameplan off 9 and kept it tight. Grinding it out.
That 2nd test would have gone the same way as the 1st without that red. How quickly things change.
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@pakman said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
We select athletic locks, on the basis that around the sixty the wheels will fall off oppo fatties. Recent issue has been time wasting and, more poignant, long TMO delays, which have meant their fatties aren't getting worn down as quickly.
I think this is a bit of a myth. nowadays.
I don't think the AB's are fitter than the opposition nowadays. Our guys were blowing really hard even in the first half. You could predict at that stage that we were not going to have a miracle Q4 as the "valiant Irish" ran out of steam as they have historically done.
Plus our bench used to be a real weapon. They were not much inferior to the run on 15 and so were really able to put a tiring opposition to the sword. This also is no longer true. Our bench is inferior to SA's for example and there isn't the same seamless continuity when changes are made. This in turn leads to a reluctance to make necessary changes or alternatively Hail Mary substitutes.
We used to believe that if we had 35% possession we could score breakout try's from the inevitable turnovers. Cept now we don't win the turnovers and the opposition are far more clinical and so don't give us the options of "easy" long range scores.
Instead we have a backline that still plays as if it's a Maserati instead of a Holden with a couple of pistons missing. So pretty much every time we get possession we end up conceding 10 metres and / or the ball.
Smith if he plays and is on form will go a long way to masking these issues but it won't address them - and he's 33 on Sunday!
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@pakman said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
We select athletic locks, on the basis that around the sixty the wheels will fall off oppo fatties. Recent issue has been time wasting and, more poignant, long TMO delays, which have meant their fatties aren't getting worn down as quickly.
I think this is a bit of a myth. nowadays.
I don't think the AB's are fitter than the opposition nowadays. Our guys were blowing really hard even in the first half. You could predict at that stage that we were not going to have a miracle Q4 as the "valiant Irish" ran out of steam as they have historically done.
Plus our bench used to be a real weapon. They were not much inferior to the run on 15 and so were really able to put a tiring opposition to the sword. This also is no longer true. Our bench is inferior to SA's for example and there isn't the same seamless continuity when changes are made. This in turn leads to a reluctance to make necessary changes or alternatively Hail Mary substitutes.
We used to believe that if we had 35% possession we could score breakout try's from the inevitable turnovers. Cept now we don't win the turnovers and the opposition are far more clinical and so don't give us the options of "easy" long range scores.
Instead we have a backline that still plays as if it's a Maserati instead of a Holden with a couple of pistons missing. So pretty much every time we get possession we end up conceding 10 metres and / or the ball.
Smith if he plays and is on form will go a long way to masking these issues but it won't address them - and he's 33 on Sunday!
I disagree. I think the ABs are still fitter in the forwards on the whole than most forward packs. Even the Irish were blowing hard after 65 mins on Saturday after putting in the effort they had, but only were up by 3.
I've only ever seen the Boks put in a backs to the wall defensive performance like that in the last 20 years, and that was several times against the ABs. I recall them winning in 2005 on the back of such a performance when the ABs did everything but score in Cape Town. Did they care? Nope. They won a world cup 2 years later.
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@pakman said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
We select athletic locks, on the basis that around the sixty the wheels will fall off oppo fatties. Recent issue has been time wasting and, more poignant, long TMO delays, which have meant their fatties aren't getting worn down as quickly.
I think this is a bit of a myth. nowadays.
I don't think the AB's are fitter than the opposition nowadays. Our guys were blowing really hard even in the first half. You could predict at that stage that we were not going to have a miracle Q4 as the "valiant Irish" ran out of steam as they have historically done.
Plus our bench used to be a real weapon. They were not much inferior to the run on 15 and so were really able to put a tiring opposition to the sword. This also is no longer true. Our bench is inferior to SA's for example and there isn't the same seamless continuity when changes are made. This in turn leads to a reluctance to make necessary changes or alternatively Hail Mary substitutes.
We used to believe that if we had 35% possession we could score breakout try's from the inevitable turnovers. Cept now we don't win the turnovers and the opposition are far more clinical and so don't give us the options of "easy" long range scores.
Instead we have a backline that still plays as if it's a Maserati instead of a Holden with a couple of pistons missing. So pretty much every time we get possession we end up conceding 10 metres and / or the ball.Smith if he plays and is on form will go a long way to masking these issues but it won't address them - and he's 33 on Sunday!
Dunno, we still seemed at pace in the forwards in the last 20. And given we were basically losing the tackle count 4-1, that would suggest we are fitter.
In my view, we won't get any sort of dominance again as long as they're are 23 man teams. Other countries are simply much stronger at building the physical attributes to play 40-45 mins of rugby. It's only when you have to play 80 that our historical (last 25 years) strengths come into play.
England, South Africa, Ireland will continue to flourish in my view.
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@majorrage said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@pakman said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
We select athletic locks, on the basis that around the sixty the wheels will fall off oppo fatties. Recent issue has been time wasting and, more poignant, long TMO delays, which have meant their fatties aren't getting worn down as quickly.
I think this is a bit of a myth. nowadays.
I don't think the AB's are fitter than the opposition nowadays. Our guys were blowing really hard even in the first half. You could predict at that stage that we were not going to have a miracle Q4 as the "valiant Irish" ran out of steam as they have historically done.
Plus our bench used to be a real weapon. They were not much inferior to the run on 15 and so were really able to put a tiring opposition to the sword. This also is no longer true. Our bench is inferior to SA's for example and there isn't the same seamless continuity when changes are made. This in turn leads to a reluctance to make necessary changes or alternatively Hail Mary substitutes.
We used to believe that if we had 35% possession we could score breakout try's from the inevitable turnovers. Cept now we don't win the turnovers and the opposition are far more clinical and so don't give us the options of "easy" long range scores.
Instead we have a backline that still plays as if it's a Maserati instead of a Holden with a couple of pistons missing. So pretty much every time we get possession we end up conceding 10 metres and / or the ball.Smith if he plays and is on form will go a long way to masking these issues but it won't address them - and he's 33 on Sunday!
Dunno, we still seemed at pace in the forwards in the last 20. And given we were basically losing the tackle count 4-1, that would suggest we are fitter.
In my view, we won't get any sort of dominance again as long as they're are 23 man teams. Other countries are simply much stronger at building the physical attributes to play 40-45 mins of rugby. It's only when you have to play 80 that our historical (last 25 years) strengths come into play.
England, South Africa, Ireland will continue to flourish in my view.
Agree. The effect is lessened further by being able to have long breathers at scrums, endless water boys at every stoppage and TMO 'chats'
