All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
For those criticizing Foster and his team, please reflect.
He did after all save a place at 13 for Ennor. Obvious selection genius.And he played Reiko at 13 today - something many wanted, I might add.
Rieko. Who has played better for the ABs than Ennor AND played better than him in the midfield AND was a far more experienced AB.
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@chester-draws said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
OK. Very fair points. But what if the problems aren't Foster or aren't just Foster? What if we get Robertson in and things don't improve that much? What do we do then?
But they are all down to Foster. So trying to fix them some other way isn't going to work.
Those of us who follow the Chiefs knows how this goes -- there will be some false dawns where improvement appears to happen, followed soon after by ever more awful outcomes. Foster doesn't get better over time, that we know.
The "what happens if Robertson sucks argument" is lame. Do we keep Foster on for the next 50 years, just in case the next guy is worse? Which, in Robertson's case, he definitely isn't.
You're dead right on the mid-field, but we've had 6 years - six fucking years - to sort out some stability which takes into account injuries, and yet our options for the France game are now down to two inexperienced tyros in Ennor & Tupaea, an out-of-form Havili and/or Reiko who's a great wing but lacks goods at 13 at Test level.
When did Foster join the AB set-up. Would it be about six fucking years ago?
That's not all down to Foster (I actually give him credit for at least trying to fix the issue) - that's down to NZRFU taking their eye off the ball on ensuring long-term player development.
Bull. Hansen tried things. The "dual playmaker" gambit didn't work, but he did try something new.
What innovation is Foster delivering to the team? Be specific.
You seem to be saying all the problems in NZ rugby for the last 6 years, particularly the midfield, are down to one man - Foster. That's a pretty myopic and simplistic view to take IMO, unless Foster is some secret evil genius who controls ever aspect of rugby in NZ
If you think there aren't any deeper problems, we have talent to burn in the country, other teams aren't getting better and all is good in NZ rugby-land, and changing one member of personnel is an easy, sure-fire route to success, then fine. Just don't expect me to agree with you.
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@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
For those criticizing Foster and his team, please reflect.
He did after all save a place at 13 for Ennor. Obvious selection genius.And he played Reiko at 13 today - something many wanted, I might add.
Rieko. Who has played better for the ABs than Ennor AND played better than him in the midfield AND was a far more experienced AB.
He's the least-worst option at 13 at the moment with injuries.
Don't get me wrong - I rate RI, particularly how he came back from injury unlike a lot of other wings, and he'd be one of the first names on the team sheet, just not at 13
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
well, to be fair, we were one very slight decision away from winning the game. Despite getting flogged in every single metric. So he sorta has a point
The counterpoint is we've heard this tune before.
look, agreed. i wasn't really excusing them.
If they really came out of that review feeling good then we are proper fucked.
Yes, proper fucked
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
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@bones said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Smith will magically fix all these issues.
The problem is, he probably will, he's that fucking good, thus papering over our deficiencies.
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I thought Cane's words were pretty spot-on. But that's the easy bit, fixing them will be a tad trickier...
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants Irish missed more tackles than us, despite us having to make twice as many.
TBH I think plenty of those stats are not surprising, when you look at some of our matches over the years, but we kicked away twice as much and passed half as much, Rucks won - Ireland 132, NZ 57
We had twice as many linebreaks and more off loads, yet alot was ineffective.
I guess we generally do more with less ball. Sometimes I'd like to see us grind down an opposition
Do we have the cattle for that?
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Yeah he sure did that at the WC,
Maybe I am saying 9 years he’s stale and is running out of ideas.
Time to go before he fucks everything up oops he almost done that.
If you don’t understand that don’t keep asking me stupid questions. -
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
If you don’t understand that don’t keep asking me stupid questions.
In what way is querying the quality of Foster's involvement with the AB's since 2012 a stupid question? It's only what you have been doing.
It's a debate on whether replacing Foster with Robertson is a magic solution to the the current problems. Calm down.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants Irish missed more tackles than us, despite us having to make twice as many.
TBH I think plenty of those stats are not surprising, when you look at some of our matches over the years, but we kicked away twice as much and passed half as much, Rucks won - Ireland 132, NZ 57
We had twice as many linebreaks and more off loads, yet alot was ineffective.
I guess we generally do more with less ball. Sometimes I'd like to see us grind down an opposition
Do we have the cattle for that?
The forward pack that won the 2015 RWC:
N8 8 Kieran Read
OF 7 Richie McCaw (c)
BF 6 Jerome Kaino
RL 5 Sam Whitelock
LL 4 Brodie Retallick
TP 3 Owen Franks
HK 2 Dane Coles
LP 1 Joe MoodySo Moody, Coles, Retallick, Whitelock are all still there. 4/5 of the tight five. 6 years older though. Possibly less dynamic.
THP is a problem. Nobody has really impressed.
I think NZ are ok with hookers. I do think Taylor sometimes struggles to impose himself at test level, but two of the tries NZ have scored this year (against SA in test 1 and against Ireland) are as a result of line breaking and support play, which are v good. But he's not going to power through opposing defences.
No point comparing the quality of the players in the backrow to now, but the thing that stands out is you know what each one's role is. Cane is the closest NZ have to the McCaw at the end of his career. Tough, uncompromising. Though shall not pass.
Read was a great lineout operator and when he ranged out wide his speed of hand and ability to cover the ground was unparalleled. He also had a mean streak. He could put a hit in to change momentum. Savea can power through tackles, but I don't recall him dominating people in tackles. Sotutu is probably more similar to Read in that he is bit more imposing.
Kaino. There's no one like him right now in current AB squad. Could play tight, could play loose. Lineout operator if needed. Brutal defender. Supreme athlete. There isn't even a Jerry Collins type who just loves to smash and cart the ball up all day. No matter how much you smash him, he'll get up and smile and carry it once again into the midst of battle.
The big thing about the 2015 backrow was their smarts. As a collective they were peerless at times. But that comes from experience, born out of failure. They also knew when to roll their sleeves up and do the dirty work to wrest control back in games where NZ were under the pump. I think it is forgotten that even under McCaw's leadership, NZ had plenty of games where they didn't dominate possession and they didn't control the game. What they did was stay in the fight and strike. They wore teams down with their intensity, waiting for them to punch themselves out. Several games against SA were like this, especially John Smit's 100th test in SA where Dagg scored with the last play.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
This.
I've just watched the last 5 minutes of the 2013 Ireland game when we won in the dying minutes. The contrast in managing the pace of the game to eliminate errors compared to Saturday is there to see - along with the body-language, player communication and decision-making. Cool heads and on-field management more than just raw talent.
PS: Check out Nonu calmly waiting for a bobbling ball to come to him rather than snatching it, running a perfect angle to take out 3 Irish defenders and then recycling the ball quickly. Object lesson in Rugby smarts.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
This.
I've just watched the last 5 minutes of the 2013 Ireland game when we won in the dying minutes. The contrast in managing the pace of the game to eliminate errors compared to Saturday is there to see - along with the body-language, player communication and decision-making. Cool heads and on-field management more than just raw talent.
PS: Check out Nonu calmly waiting for a bobbling ball to come to him rather than snatching it, running a perfect angle to take out 3 Irish defenders and then recycling the ball quickly. Object lesson in Rugby smarts.
Ireland learnt lots from this game too. If played now, you're damn sure they would have disrupted NZ's flow and given away a penalty.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
This.
I've just watched the last 5 minutes of the 2013 Ireland game when we won in the dying minutes. The contrast in managing the pace of the game to eliminate errors compared to Saturday is there to see - along with the body-language, player communication and decision-making. Cool heads and on-field management more than just raw talent.
PS: Check out Nonu calmly waiting for a bobbling ball to come to him rather than snatching it, running a perfect angle to take out 3 Irish defenders and then recycling the ball quickly. Object lesson in Rugby smarts.
Everyone did their jobs, and it was only Coles at the end that made the risky pass. That team trusted each other. That comes with experience of playing together and combinations. they trusted the process/system and reaped the rewards.
It was an insane passage of play.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
That team trusted each other. That comes with experience of playing together and combinations. they trusted the process/system and reaped the rewards.
The point I think I'm making is that trust didn't just come from playing together or being together a long time. IIRC from reading McCaw's book, building trust and communication was a deliberate exercise by the players themselves.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
That team trusted each other. That comes with experience of playing together and combinations. they trusted the process/system and reaped the rewards.
The point I think I'm making is that trust didn't just come from playing together or being together a long time. IIRC from reading McCaw's book, building trust and communication was a deliberate exercise by the players themselves.
Maybe there's too much communication now?
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants Irish missed more tackles than us, despite us having to make twice as many.
TBH I think plenty of those stats are not surprising, when you look at some of our matches over the years, but we kicked away twice as much and passed half as much, Rucks won - Ireland 132, NZ 57
We had twice as many linebreaks and more off loads, yet alot was ineffective.
I guess we generally do more with less ball. Sometimes I'd like to see us grind down an opposition
Do we have the cattle for that?
Oz showed a team could spank Boks without grinding them down.
Against Poms and Boks, and maybe Paddies/Frogs I think we need to achieve broad parity in set piece (which we have been) and 40% plus in breakdown.
We select athletic locks, on the basis that around the sixty the wheels will fall off oppo fatties. Recent issue has been time wasting and, more poignant, long TMO delays, which have meant their fatties aren't getting worn down as quickly.
