All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
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I thought Cane's words were pretty spot-on. But that's the easy bit, fixing them will be a tad trickier...
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants Irish missed more tackles than us, despite us having to make twice as many.
TBH I think plenty of those stats are not surprising, when you look at some of our matches over the years, but we kicked away twice as much and passed half as much, Rucks won - Ireland 132, NZ 57
We had twice as many linebreaks and more off loads, yet alot was ineffective.
I guess we generally do more with less ball. Sometimes I'd like to see us grind down an opposition
Do we have the cattle for that?
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Yeah he sure did that at the WC,
Maybe I am saying 9 years he’s stale and is running out of ideas.
Time to go before he fucks everything up oops he almost done that.
If you don’t understand that don’t keep asking me stupid questions. -
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
If you don’t understand that don’t keep asking me stupid questions.
In what way is querying the quality of Foster's involvement with the AB's since 2012 a stupid question? It's only what you have been doing.
It's a debate on whether replacing Foster with Robertson is a magic solution to the the current problems. Calm down.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants Irish missed more tackles than us, despite us having to make twice as many.
TBH I think plenty of those stats are not surprising, when you look at some of our matches over the years, but we kicked away twice as much and passed half as much, Rucks won - Ireland 132, NZ 57
We had twice as many linebreaks and more off loads, yet alot was ineffective.
I guess we generally do more with less ball. Sometimes I'd like to see us grind down an opposition
Do we have the cattle for that?
The forward pack that won the 2015 RWC:
N8 8 Kieran Read
OF 7 Richie McCaw (c)
BF 6 Jerome Kaino
RL 5 Sam Whitelock
LL 4 Brodie Retallick
TP 3 Owen Franks
HK 2 Dane Coles
LP 1 Joe MoodySo Moody, Coles, Retallick, Whitelock are all still there. 4/5 of the tight five. 6 years older though. Possibly less dynamic.
THP is a problem. Nobody has really impressed.
I think NZ are ok with hookers. I do think Taylor sometimes struggles to impose himself at test level, but two of the tries NZ have scored this year (against SA in test 1 and against Ireland) are as a result of line breaking and support play, which are v good. But he's not going to power through opposing defences.
No point comparing the quality of the players in the backrow to now, but the thing that stands out is you know what each one's role is. Cane is the closest NZ have to the McCaw at the end of his career. Tough, uncompromising. Though shall not pass.
Read was a great lineout operator and when he ranged out wide his speed of hand and ability to cover the ground was unparalleled. He also had a mean streak. He could put a hit in to change momentum. Savea can power through tackles, but I don't recall him dominating people in tackles. Sotutu is probably more similar to Read in that he is bit more imposing.
Kaino. There's no one like him right now in current AB squad. Could play tight, could play loose. Lineout operator if needed. Brutal defender. Supreme athlete. There isn't even a Jerry Collins type who just loves to smash and cart the ball up all day. No matter how much you smash him, he'll get up and smile and carry it once again into the midst of battle.
The big thing about the 2015 backrow was their smarts. As a collective they were peerless at times. But that comes from experience, born out of failure. They also knew when to roll their sleeves up and do the dirty work to wrest control back in games where NZ were under the pump. I think it is forgotten that even under McCaw's leadership, NZ had plenty of games where they didn't dominate possession and they didn't control the game. What they did was stay in the fight and strike. They wore teams down with their intensity, waiting for them to punch themselves out. Several games against SA were like this, especially John Smit's 100th test in SA where Dagg scored with the last play.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
This.
I've just watched the last 5 minutes of the 2013 Ireland game when we won in the dying minutes. The contrast in managing the pace of the game to eliminate errors compared to Saturday is there to see - along with the body-language, player communication and decision-making. Cool heads and on-field management more than just raw talent.
PS: Check out Nonu calmly waiting for a bobbling ball to come to him rather than snatching it, running a perfect angle to take out 3 Irish defenders and then recycling the ball quickly. Object lesson in Rugby smarts.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
This.
I've just watched the last 5 minutes of the 2013 Ireland game when we won in the dying minutes. The contrast in managing the pace of the game to eliminate errors compared to Saturday is there to see - along with the body-language, player communication and decision-making. Cool heads and on-field management more than just raw talent.
PS: Check out Nonu calmly waiting for a bobbling ball to come to him rather than snatching it, running a perfect angle to take out 3 Irish defenders and then recycling the ball quickly. Object lesson in Rugby smarts.
Ireland learnt lots from this game too. If played now, you're damn sure they would have disrupted NZ's flow and given away a penalty.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
This.
I've just watched the last 5 minutes of the 2013 Ireland game when we won in the dying minutes. The contrast in managing the pace of the game to eliminate errors compared to Saturday is there to see - along with the body-language, player communication and decision-making. Cool heads and on-field management more than just raw talent.
PS: Check out Nonu calmly waiting for a bobbling ball to come to him rather than snatching it, running a perfect angle to take out 3 Irish defenders and then recycling the ball quickly. Object lesson in Rugby smarts.
Everyone did their jobs, and it was only Coles at the end that made the risky pass. That team trusted each other. That comes with experience of playing together and combinations. they trusted the process/system and reaped the rewards.
It was an insane passage of play.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
That team trusted each other. That comes with experience of playing together and combinations. they trusted the process/system and reaped the rewards.
The point I think I'm making is that trust didn't just come from playing together or being together a long time. IIRC from reading McCaw's book, building trust and communication was a deliberate exercise by the players themselves.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
That team trusted each other. That comes with experience of playing together and combinations. they trusted the process/system and reaped the rewards.
The point I think I'm making is that trust didn't just come from playing together or being together a long time. IIRC from reading McCaw's book, building trust and communication was a deliberate exercise by the players themselves.
Maybe there's too much communication now?
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants Irish missed more tackles than us, despite us having to make twice as many.
TBH I think plenty of those stats are not surprising, when you look at some of our matches over the years, but we kicked away twice as much and passed half as much, Rucks won - Ireland 132, NZ 57
We had twice as many linebreaks and more off loads, yet alot was ineffective.
I guess we generally do more with less ball. Sometimes I'd like to see us grind down an opposition
Do we have the cattle for that?
Oz showed a team could spank Boks without grinding them down.
Against Poms and Boks, and maybe Paddies/Frogs I think we need to achieve broad parity in set piece (which we have been) and 40% plus in breakdown.
We select athletic locks, on the basis that around the sixty the wheels will fall off oppo fatties. Recent issue has been time wasting and, more poignant, long TMO delays, which have meant their fatties aren't getting worn down as quickly.
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Now watched Q3, which was IRE 15 -- ABs 0.
AB forwards fine in general. Exception tackling close to ruck. Taylor missed direct tackle in lead up to both Irish tries. Bladder's tackle ineffective two out in first try. Some signs of interference by Irish 19 in ruck before second one. Nepo also misssed key one in lead up to first.
Mainly good kicking, especially by Jordie (excepting the horrible scuff). Reece's returns from Irish kick much more ropey -- did Irish target him?
In contrast, backs made at least three largely unforced errors, all from good ball:
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Jordans 'non knock on' drop (eyes off ball)
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Rieko jerky pass behind Jordie (probably ought to have held on)
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RM pass to flat footed Havili after AB lineout short throw on Irish ten metres. Runs into Aki/Dorris/Sexton and loses ball. No forwards close enough to save. RM positioned more behind pod than lateral. Loopy TJP pass. No idea what the play was meant to be.
All these were massive momentum killers.
Also dicking around by TJP in our 22 at around the 50 minute mark. Ended with lineout on our 30 and soon after to second try.
Another unsympathetic TJP pass to Nepo's shoulder was knocked on, leading to 50:22. We secure ball (illegally) and Havili misses a must make touch. He finshes off with an offside tackle on Gibson Park at the ruck. Sexton converts.
Not sure Ireland were that dominant per se, but to give them their due they surgically punished us for our error proneness!
Not sure the coaching team can be blamed for that much of this.
That said, I'd have pulled TJP!
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
This.
I've just watched the last 5 minutes of the 2013 Ireland game when we won in the dying minutes. The contrast in managing the pace of the game to eliminate errors compared to Saturday is there to see - along with the body-language, player communication and decision-making. Cool heads and on-field management more than just raw talent.
PS: Check out Nonu calmly waiting for a bobbling ball to come to him rather than snatching it, running a perfect angle to take out 3 Irish defenders and then recycling the ball quickly. Object lesson in Rugby smarts.
Richie McCaw had high standards. It rubbed off on everyone around him. No one wanted to let him down. I wonder if he shouldn't be invited to be part of AB coaching set up next season.
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@sparky said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Richie McCaw had high standards. It rubbed off on everyone around him. No one wanted to let him down. I wonder if he shouldn't be invited to be part of AB coaching set up next season.
Lots of captains in the last year can't have helped, though I think Ardie & Sam have done a pretty good job.
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@victor-meldrew Ireland also a better side now than then.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
If you don’t understand that don’t keep asking me stupid questions.
In what way is querying the quality of Foster's involvement with the AB's since 2012 a stupid question? It's only what you have been doing.
It's a debate on whether replacing Foster with Robertson is a magic solution to the the current problems. Calm down.
You have your opinion I have mine .
Foster never has been a decent head coach with the ability to create a consistent team that is shown in his record as a Coach at the Chiefs and now with the ABs .
His record speaks for itself. -
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Hansen should hae left, post Lions debacle (as planned) the Foster would’ve got his 2 years leading upto the RWC, which is more than enough to prove he’s got it or not (obviously not). Instead the inbreds at NZR have kept both Hansen and Foster on for 2 more years than they should have had. Everyone goes stale, even the greatest, like Titch at 7s. The key is moving on early enough, Hansen had the right idea but 2016 went to his (and NZRs) head.
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@sparky said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew Ireland also a better side now than then.
That's probably Foster's fault too....
