All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
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@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@roninwc given Goodhue had returned to 13 for the Saders and the fact that Foster came to the party to stop playing Jordie on the wing and moved him to his rightful position of fullback, I think he may have moved Goodhue back.
I think you assume way too much and give Foster too much credit here.
The best you can say is maybe and maybe not. But whether he did or not, it still doesn't help that Goodhue's form was also off, quite badly IMO.
I don't think we can sit here and think Goodhue will be the return of our savior by any means.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
So sincere questions for the Fern:
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Are there any players not in the current AB squad that you believe would make a difference? What do you think they would offer above the existing players in their position?
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Assuming the answer to 1 isn't an extensive list, do you believe the current set of players have the conditioning to play a more forward, attritional style of game?
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Assuming the ABs need to bulk up to meet the challenge of Ireland, SA and England, is the major work not in the hands of Nic Gill in terms of changing the physique of the ABs to suit that type of game? Or do you believe it is more a question of mentality that the ABs are lacking right now in terms of how they are approaching the challenge of owning the collisions (both forwards and backs)?
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Is there a foreign born coach that you would select to mould the ABs into a world beating outfit? If so, who? Of course, I know there are lots of v good NZ coaches available. I'm thinking of the angle of someone from outside the NZ bubble being able to make cold, hard decisions without any bias.
All good questions. Just don't have the energy to answer.
Except about foreign coach. Can't think of any I'd have in front of the plethora of NZers out there.
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@booboo said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
So sincere questions for the Fern:
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Are there any players not in the current AB squad that you believe would make a difference? What do you think they would offer above the existing players in their position?
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Assuming the answer to 1 isn't an extensive list, do you believe the current set of players have the conditioning to play a more forward, attritional style of game?
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Assuming the ABs need to bulk up to meet the challenge of Ireland, SA and England, is the major work not in the hands of Nic Gill in terms of changing the physique of the ABs to suit that type of game? Or do you believe it is more a question of mentality that the ABs are lacking right now in terms of how they are approaching the challenge of owning the collisions (both forwards and backs)?
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Is there a foreign born coach that you would select to mould the ABs into a world beating outfit? If so, who? Of course, I know there are lots of v good NZ coaches available. I'm thinking of the angle of someone from outside the NZ bubble being able to make cold, hard decisions without any bias.
All good questions. Just don't have the energy to answer.
Except about foreign coach. Can't think of any I'd have in front of the plethora of NZers out there.
I'd take the Georgian coach in a heartbeat...
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Rest of the 1st half.
Ireland score with basic hands in the backs from the YC penalty. Good forward maul lineout defence, good forward defence on the line, then we can't cope with them making basic passes out wide. Poor organisation, poor backline defence.
TJ spraying slow passes to kill momentum again. Hard to think of a worse halfback to combat a rush defence. Or a worse halfback to replace A Smith's part in a team game plan.
Now 20 mins in and the forwards can't receive the kick-off cleanly. Their first real mistake.
Beauden attempts to tackle with his head, so he's off. Solid defence apart from that.
Dubious held up call on Jordan, but fuck my days whoever called a blindside one on one move when we're packing a 7 man scrum without a fucking blindside is a fucking moron. You'd roast a fucking school kid for doing that.
Moody penalised at scrum, couldn't really see what happened.
Great try line defence from the forwards. We win a relieving penalty, then TJ taps it 5m from our line and we boot it down the middle of the field, brainlessly giving possession back in our own half, and Ireland straight back on the attack.
Get out of jail again, only for Savea to throw a terrible pass to nobody. Basic skills.
29 mins gone and we've made 77 tackles to their 35.
Ireland score a soft try, rightly called back for crawling, but doesn't excuse that defensive alignment.
And now the Irish leave a huge hole for Dalton, and he puts Taylor away. Fresh legs eh Cody?
TJ kicks too far, uncontestable, Ireland back on attack. Penalty for Blackadder late tackle and we're back on the try line. Very good defence and a great turnover from Whitelock, but TJ fucks up the clearance, so Ireland back on our line. They knock it on in a tackle, and TJ manages to put it out this time. 143 tackles to 73 now.
Rieko offside, Blackadder makes a turnover so no advantage, they go for the corner and fuck it up for halftime.
We've defended pretty bloody well on our own line. But our accuracy with the ball, and our tactics when we get it and willingness to give it straight back, are genuinely shit. On the upside, Blackadder really prominent in defence, Paps and the 2 locks both solid as too. Jordan, Jordie and Reece all trying hard.Enjoying this, looking forward to your suffering in the 2nd half.
Maybe we need to nominate a different Ferner to take this role on every week...
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
For those criticizing Foster and his team, please reflect.
He did after all save a place at 13 for Ennor. Obvious selection genius.And he played Reiko at 13 today - something many wanted, I might add.
Rieko. Who has played better for the ABs than Ennor AND played better than him in the midfield AND was a far more experienced AB.
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@chester-draws said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
OK. Very fair points. But what if the problems aren't Foster or aren't just Foster? What if we get Robertson in and things don't improve that much? What do we do then?
But they are all down to Foster. So trying to fix them some other way isn't going to work.
Those of us who follow the Chiefs knows how this goes -- there will be some false dawns where improvement appears to happen, followed soon after by ever more awful outcomes. Foster doesn't get better over time, that we know.
The "what happens if Robertson sucks argument" is lame. Do we keep Foster on for the next 50 years, just in case the next guy is worse? Which, in Robertson's case, he definitely isn't.
You're dead right on the mid-field, but we've had 6 years - six fucking years - to sort out some stability which takes into account injuries, and yet our options for the France game are now down to two inexperienced tyros in Ennor & Tupaea, an out-of-form Havili and/or Reiko who's a great wing but lacks goods at 13 at Test level.
When did Foster join the AB set-up. Would it be about six fucking years ago?
That's not all down to Foster (I actually give him credit for at least trying to fix the issue) - that's down to NZRFU taking their eye off the ball on ensuring long-term player development.
Bull. Hansen tried things. The "dual playmaker" gambit didn't work, but he did try something new.
What innovation is Foster delivering to the team? Be specific.
You seem to be saying all the problems in NZ rugby for the last 6 years, particularly the midfield, are down to one man - Foster. That's a pretty myopic and simplistic view to take IMO, unless Foster is some secret evil genius who controls ever aspect of rugby in NZ
If you think there aren't any deeper problems, we have talent to burn in the country, other teams aren't getting better and all is good in NZ rugby-land, and changing one member of personnel is an easy, sure-fire route to success, then fine. Just don't expect me to agree with you.
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@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
For those criticizing Foster and his team, please reflect.
He did after all save a place at 13 for Ennor. Obvious selection genius.And he played Reiko at 13 today - something many wanted, I might add.
Rieko. Who has played better for the ABs than Ennor AND played better than him in the midfield AND was a far more experienced AB.
He's the least-worst option at 13 at the moment with injuries.
Don't get me wrong - I rate RI, particularly how he came back from injury unlike a lot of other wings, and he'd be one of the first names on the team sheet, just not at 13
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
well, to be fair, we were one very slight decision away from winning the game. Despite getting flogged in every single metric. So he sorta has a point
The counterpoint is we've heard this tune before.
look, agreed. i wasn't really excusing them.
If they really came out of that review feeling good then we are proper fucked.
Yes, proper fucked
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
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@bones said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Smith will magically fix all these issues.
The problem is, he probably will, he's that fucking good, thus papering over our deficiencies.
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I thought Cane's words were pretty spot-on. But that's the easy bit, fixing them will be a tad trickier...
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants Irish missed more tackles than us, despite us having to make twice as many.
TBH I think plenty of those stats are not surprising, when you look at some of our matches over the years, but we kicked away twice as much and passed half as much, Rucks won - Ireland 132, NZ 57
We had twice as many linebreaks and more off loads, yet alot was ineffective.
I guess we generally do more with less ball. Sometimes I'd like to see us grind down an opposition
Do we have the cattle for that?
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Yeah he sure did that at the WC,
Maybe I am saying 9 years he’s stale and is running out of ideas.
Time to go before he fucks everything up oops he almost done that.
If you don’t understand that don’t keep asking me stupid questions. -
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
If you don’t understand that don’t keep asking me stupid questions.
In what way is querying the quality of Foster's involvement with the AB's since 2012 a stupid question? It's only what you have been doing.
It's a debate on whether replacing Foster with Robertson is a magic solution to the the current problems. Calm down.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants Irish missed more tackles than us, despite us having to make twice as many.
TBH I think plenty of those stats are not surprising, when you look at some of our matches over the years, but we kicked away twice as much and passed half as much, Rucks won - Ireland 132, NZ 57
We had twice as many linebreaks and more off loads, yet alot was ineffective.
I guess we generally do more with less ball. Sometimes I'd like to see us grind down an opposition
Do we have the cattle for that?
The forward pack that won the 2015 RWC:
N8 8 Kieran Read
OF 7 Richie McCaw (c)
BF 6 Jerome Kaino
RL 5 Sam Whitelock
LL 4 Brodie Retallick
TP 3 Owen Franks
HK 2 Dane Coles
LP 1 Joe MoodySo Moody, Coles, Retallick, Whitelock are all still there. 4/5 of the tight five. 6 years older though. Possibly less dynamic.
THP is a problem. Nobody has really impressed.
I think NZ are ok with hookers. I do think Taylor sometimes struggles to impose himself at test level, but two of the tries NZ have scored this year (against SA in test 1 and against Ireland) are as a result of line breaking and support play, which are v good. But he's not going to power through opposing defences.
No point comparing the quality of the players in the backrow to now, but the thing that stands out is you know what each one's role is. Cane is the closest NZ have to the McCaw at the end of his career. Tough, uncompromising. Though shall not pass.
Read was a great lineout operator and when he ranged out wide his speed of hand and ability to cover the ground was unparalleled. He also had a mean streak. He could put a hit in to change momentum. Savea can power through tackles, but I don't recall him dominating people in tackles. Sotutu is probably more similar to Read in that he is bit more imposing.
Kaino. There's no one like him right now in current AB squad. Could play tight, could play loose. Lineout operator if needed. Brutal defender. Supreme athlete. There isn't even a Jerry Collins type who just loves to smash and cart the ball up all day. No matter how much you smash him, he'll get up and smile and carry it once again into the midst of battle.
The big thing about the 2015 backrow was their smarts. As a collective they were peerless at times. But that comes from experience, born out of failure. They also knew when to roll their sleeves up and do the dirty work to wrest control back in games where NZ were under the pump. I think it is forgotten that even under McCaw's leadership, NZ had plenty of games where they didn't dominate possession and they didn't control the game. What they did was stay in the fight and strike. They wore teams down with their intensity, waiting for them to punch themselves out. Several games against SA were like this, especially John Smit's 100th test in SA where Dagg scored with the last play.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
This.
I've just watched the last 5 minutes of the 2013 Ireland game when we won in the dying minutes. The contrast in managing the pace of the game to eliminate errors compared to Saturday is there to see - along with the body-language, player communication and decision-making. Cool heads and on-field management more than just raw talent.
PS: Check out Nonu calmly waiting for a bobbling ball to come to him rather than snatching it, running a perfect angle to take out 3 Irish defenders and then recycling the ball quickly. Object lesson in Rugby smarts.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Foster has been in the ABs coaching set up for 9 years he started in 2012
Not sure what your point is. We were pretty successful for 5 years when he was involved and he got the best out of players?
Bu that was when everything was player-led. So everything was done in spite of Foster. Achievements can't be claimed by him.
Perhaps a lot of the problems are with the players and taking ownership and may have been there for a while. Thought that was improving towards the middle of the RC but the headless-chicken syndrome may have crept back in.
I think when the Abs play at breakneck speed and passes stick, nobody is living with them. Savea's try against Boks in 2nd RC test is an example of this. The problem seems to be that they want to play at this speed ALL the time, rather than choosing when to raise the tempo to catch the opposition unawares.
This.
I've just watched the last 5 minutes of the 2013 Ireland game when we won in the dying minutes. The contrast in managing the pace of the game to eliminate errors compared to Saturday is there to see - along with the body-language, player communication and decision-making. Cool heads and on-field management more than just raw talent.
PS: Check out Nonu calmly waiting for a bobbling ball to come to him rather than snatching it, running a perfect angle to take out 3 Irish defenders and then recycling the ball quickly. Object lesson in Rugby smarts.
Ireland learnt lots from this game too. If played now, you're damn sure they would have disrupted NZ's flow and given away a penalty.
