The All Black's current midfield balance.
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@crucial said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@nzzp said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
As to the intercept issue I think you can’t penalize I player for trying to make an intercept. To me it really has to be blatant and no chance of being caught. Penalizing a team for a poor pass is stupid.
... but presumably you don't like some weeks it being a yellow card, some weeks a penalty, and some weeks a knock on only? Because right now the reffing interpretations are pretty random.
I know it's the dead horse I flog, and there's lots of room for interpretation in some areas of the game, but basic, clear cut principles should be consistently applied week to week.
When it is a clear professional foul such as diving forward like a slips catch to cut off a three on one overlap the YC should be the first thing that comes to mind. Not just for the advantage taken away but the ruination of the type of play that spectators pay money to watch.
I agree, but I think the refs don't align.
Do you think both last week and this week were yellow cards? I do - and arguably last week was a PT as well; cynical play that stopped a probable try
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@junior said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@akan004 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@act-crusader well it does not seem to work all the time especially when there is no space.
I think it works fine against defences that don't rush as quickly as the Boks do but we may have to stand deeper against them. The two attempted intercepts by the Boks could have been avoided if we weren't so flat.
It’s works OK when our forwards are going forward and they buy us space. We have to learn that against some teams we just won’t go forward as much as we need to up front and so should be prepared to change our alignment to give the backs a bit more time and space. Christ, we do this at club level I would expect professionals to be able to do it
If it was as easy as standing deeper then surely pro teams would be doing it. A problem with standing deep is getting caught/tackled behind the line. That fucks everything up.
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@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@junior said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Havili's problem is that if he doesn't beat you with footwork he isn't going to get you over the advantage line. Tupaea has shown some strength post-tackle, which Havili hasn't.
The problem that both of our midfielders have - and actually it's a problem across the team at the moment - is that neither of them are really great running onto the ball. They tend to get the ball a bit flat footed and use a jink on the inside or gas on the outside, but that's a real momentum killer when you have that fish hook defensive line that the Boks play. It therefore becomes very hard to bend or break the line. Even our forwards tend to hit up the ball in that manner - even Akira did it far too often on the weekend, which defeats the purpose of having him hit up the ball.
The only person that pierced the line on a regular basis last night was Jordie. Just ran hard and straight. Ardie too
….and R Ioane in the lead up to Saveas try to be fair. Showed excellent strength and balance.
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@nzzp said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@crucial said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@nzzp said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
As to the intercept issue I think you can’t penalize I player for trying to make an intercept. To me it really has to be blatant and no chance of being caught. Penalizing a team for a poor pass is stupid.
... but presumably you don't like some weeks it being a yellow card, some weeks a penalty, and some weeks a knock on only? Because right now the reffing interpretations are pretty random.
I know it's the dead horse I flog, and there's lots of room for interpretation in some areas of the game, but basic, clear cut principles should be consistently applied week to week.
When it is a clear professional foul such as diving forward like a slips catch to cut off a three on one overlap the YC should be the first thing that comes to mind. Not just for the advantage taken away but the ruination of the type of play that spectators pay money to watch.
I agree, but I think the refs don't align.
Do you think both last week and this week were yellow cards? I do - and arguably last week was a PT as well; cynical play that stopped a probable try
Absolutely. The threshold for PT has gone too far in favour of the defending team as well.They just look at 'the wide picture' and go "there's a covering defender so you may not have scored"
The Law is 'probable try". Probable means 'most likely', which by my reckoning means that the likelihood of a try would occur more often than not. You can't cop out by saying that the attackers might have made an error or that the defender might do everything perfectly. -
@crucial said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
The Law is 'probable try". Probable means 'most likely'
Splitting hairs, but the dictionary definition is just 'likely' that I'd say simply falls in the 50/50 category; either likely/probable, or unlikely/improbable rather than almost certainly which seems to be how the refs look at it, giving benefit of doubt to the offending team.
If you say that something is probable, you mean that it is likely to be true or likely to happen
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/probable
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@crazy-horse said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@junior said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@akan004 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@act-crusader well it does not seem to work all the time especially when there is no space.
I think it works fine against defences that don't rush as quickly as the Boks do but we may have to stand deeper against them. The two attempted intercepts by the Boks could have been avoided if we weren't so flat.
It’s works OK when our forwards are going forward and they buy us space. We have to learn that against some teams we just won’t go forward as much as we need to up front and so should be prepared to change our alignment to give the backs a bit more time and space. Christ, we do this at club level I would expect professionals to be able to do it
If it was as easy as standing deeper then surely pro teams would be doing it. A problem with standing deep is getting caught/tackled behind the line. That fucks everything up.
I'm not pretending that standing deep is some kind if panacea and I also recognise that there are good reasons for not standing too deep - we often criticise 10s for standing too deep.
What I'm talking about is alignment, and it's not really when our 10s are standing but the guys outside them that matter. How often do our midfield start basically in line with our 10, not running onto the ball, taking the ball flat-footed, which makes it hard to put a pass in front of them and also difficult to take the space that the rush defence seeks to occupy? There's nothing wring with guys receiving the ball flat to the guy inside them, but that should not be the position where they start their runs from for these very obvious reasons
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@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.
Don't expect Havili or ALB to be a Nonu. That's the wrong approach.Mo'unga is hugely overrated at the moment. I am yet to see him stamp his mark in a big test against top tier opposition. He's shat the bed and gone missing multiple times though.
Dominates Super Rugby, but has yet to make the step up to test Rugby.
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@no-quarter said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.
Don't expect Havili or ALB to be a Nonu. That's the wrong approach.Mo'unga is hugely overrated at the moment. I am yet to see him stamp his mark in a big test against top tier opposition. He's shat the bed and gone missing multiple times though.
Dominates Super Rugby, but has yet to make the step up to test Rugby.
Totally disagree he was very good v Australia in the first 2 tests this year.
Saved our arse with a 80 metre intercept in one test v Australia.
If you watch those tests again he cleared well with good kicking length in our exits.
Hard to gauge on 15 minutes v Sa in the last test after not playing for 6 weeks.Barrett apart from a couple of very good breaks was poor.
Dellande ran straight around him from a set piece move.He kicked out on the full with a cross kick.
He cant Goal kick anymore,His kicking for touch is now weak, and puts us under pressure.
He went totally missing in the 25 minutes of the second Half a lot of others also did that to be fair,But that is when he should have stepped up and a least tried to take control.But didn't or wasn't good enough to do it. -
@Chris I've said numerous times that I don't think Beauden is a natural 10, and that I thought the last performance from him was pretty typical - created two tries with sheer brilliance but didn't control the game as you'd want your 10 to when the pressure is on. So I'm not really interested in a "Beauden vs Mo'unga" debate.
To date Mo'unga has not shown an ability to control a test when the heat is on. Playing well against the Wobs when our team is bitch slapping them all over the park doesn't prove much. So far in his career he's gone missing in tests like the one on the weekend, I am far from convinced he would have fared much better, especially with someone like Havili outside him.
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@no-quarter said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@Chris I've said numerous times that I don't think Beauden is a natural 10, and that I thought the last performance from him was pretty typical - created two tries with sheer brilliance but didn't control the game as you'd want your 10 to when the pressure is on. So I'm not really interested in a "Beauden vs Mo'unga" debate.
To date Mo'unga has not shown an ability to control a test when the heat is on. Playing well against the Wobs when our team is bitch slapping them all over the park doesn't prove much. So far in his career he's gone missing in tests like the one on the weekend, I am far from convinced he would have fared much better, especially with someone like Havili outside him.
What 15 minutes after a 6 weeks break tough call that one.
Those wallabies who we bitch slapped toasted the Boks twice who showed us up 2 weeks in a Row. -
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@chris said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@no-quarter said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@Chris I've said numerous times that I don't think Beauden is a natural 10, and that I thought the last performance from him was pretty typical - created two tries with sheer brilliance but didn't control the game as you'd want your 10 to when the pressure is on. So I'm not really interested in a "Beauden vs Mo'unga" debate.
To date Mo'unga has not shown an ability to control a test when the heat is on. Playing well against the Wobs when our team is bitch slapping them all over the park doesn't prove much. So far in his career he's gone missing in tests like the one on the weekend, I am far from convinced he would have fared much better, especially with someone like Havili outside him.
What 15 minutes after a 6 weeks break tough call that one.
Those wallabies who we bitch slapped toasted the Boks twice who showed us up 2 weeks in a Row.Nah, the RWC semi final and before that he has really struggled against the Boks. Like a possum in the headlights. He's fantastic in broken play or when the team is on the front foot (like Beauden actually) but to date has not shown the ability to take control of a test when we are under pressure. In fact he's done exactly the opposite, which is why I don't see him as the obvious solution at 10 against teams like the Boks.
It's hard for both Beauden and Mo'unga though, they've come in after two genuinely world class 10s in DC and Cruden so I'm naturally comparing them against that standard which is an incredibly high bar.
That said, they are by far our best 10s at the moment so we have to work with what we have.
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Yep agreed, That was a telling time it helped turn the game towards the Boks .
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both? It wasn't like we suddenly raised our performance once he left. But jeez it was an ugly 10 to 15 and I was happy when he got the hook
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@no-quarter said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@no-quarter said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@Chris I've said numerous times that I don't think Beauden is a natural 10, and that I thought the last performance from him was pretty typical - created two tries with sheer brilliance but didn't control the game as you'd want your 10 to when the pressure is on. So I'm not really interested in a "Beauden vs Mo'unga" debate.
To date Mo'unga has not shown an ability to control a test when the heat is on. Playing well against the Wobs when our team is bitch slapping them all over the park doesn't prove much. So far in his career he's gone missing in tests like the one on the weekend, I am far from convinced he would have fared much better, especially with someone like Havili outside him.
What 15 minutes after a 6 weeks break tough call that one.
Those wallabies who we bitch slapped toasted the Boks twice who showed us up 2 weeks in a Row.Nah, the RWC semi final and before that he has really struggled against the Boks. Like a possum in the headlights. He's fantastic in broken play or when the team is on the front foot (like Beauden actually) but to date has not shown the ability to take control of a test when we are under pressure. In fact he's done exactly the opposite, which is why I don't see him as the obvious solution at 10 against teams like the Boks.
It's hard for both Beauden and Mo'unga though, they've come in after two genuinely world class 10s in DC and Cruden so I'm naturally comparing them against that standard which is an incredibly high bar.
That said, they are by far our best 10s at the moment so we have to work with what we have.
I think if we can get some more forward dominance which has been badly lacking against the Boks,England and even the Argies in one test last year. It would help all our backs who are on the back foot because of our forwards getting beaten up.Its hard to take control if you haven’t gotten some forward control.
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@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
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Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
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@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bones said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@chris yeah, I felt that the 10-15 minutes from BB before he went off was pretty shocking - he put us well on the back foot numerous times, option taking and execution were both well off.
Was it him, the forwards who got more and more dominated by the saffas, or both?
I would really want a 10 to be able to work around the forwards getting dominated, especially when as experienced as him. But it's becoming very clear his game no longer really works without that lightening pace off the mark and he just tends to shovel and/or panic when he thinks he has no other option to fall back on. Just look at that cross kick - no call from anyone, didn't even look, then kicks it well out on the full anyway. What the?
Not that it was guaranteed RM would have improved things, but it wouldn't have been worse and would have at least provided something different - he should have been on ten minutes earlier.
The saffa tactic of subbing their forwards early really was a masterstroke and we got outthought. I don't know why more teams don't do this, including us if you have a reasonably even squad
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@Bovidae yeah, I remember DC talking about how much he enjoyed having Nonu outside him as he always had a bail out option if needed.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Beauden is at his best when he takes the line on. No surprise that those line breaks often lead to tries. But when he just shuffles the ball along the rest of the backs are stifled, particularly if the 2nd 5 doesn't provide a bail-out option (what @bones wrote).
Yep, it's grimace inducing when he just gets caught upright facing his own line behind the advantage line and looks for that one handed offload to a player standing still right next to him. We all can easily flashback on that regular occurrence...
