Worst All Black RWC exits
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@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
That’s interesting because that would suggest the coaches and the team didn’t adjust to what was happening.
I think McCaw said exactly that - particularly the refereeing. In 2019 we seemed to adapt but lost concentration and made dumb errors at key points.
But I could be looking at things thru the opposite of rose-coloured glasses,
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@godder said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I'm a little more concerned that All Black teams no longer continually show ruthlessness. The ability to keep a foot on their throat and grind them into a dark place mentally. Giving up points late in the game when the result isn't in doubt, and through very poor discipline suggests to me that the hard lessons of the 2007 exit are lost on this group.
Blame the NZRFU and the public for that. There are none left who were there in 2007, and this group was immediately forgiven for the fuck-up of 2019 - the official response was to appoint one of the losing coaches to the top job, and the general public at large didn't seem to give a shit about the loss or that appointment. If no-one seems to care from those two groups, I'm not sure why we think the players should learn anything.
Foster's hire should have been commensurate with us winning in Japan. Why did we want to stay the course after how things played out? Lazy by the NZRFU
Isn't that at odds with one of the other lessons of 2007? Retaining a losing head coach paid off handsomely in 2011 and 2015.
Well 2007 was somewhat of an aberration, as was apparently highlighted in Ted's interview for re-appointment after 2007.
In any event, the trajectory was obviously upwards from where the team were in 2004 when he took over. Whereas, with Fozzie, the team's trajectory had been slowly and steadily in decline from 2016 and only likely to get worse after his re-appointment given retirements and others moving offshore after 2019.
That could possibly explain why he was re-appointed - i.e. the decline is inevitable so why tarnish the reputation of an otherwise talented candidate?
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@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
That’s interesting because that would suggest the coaches and the team didn’t adjust to what was happening. The scoreboard certainly suggested we were in it, but if your view is right then isn’t this the very thing Foster is currently being accused of and what Hansen is apparently guilty of in 2019?
I thought VM was talking about the Wales vs France loss in 2019 being worst than 2011 there but that is obviously wrong because I reread and he said 2007 and I misread.
When Rodders crashed over after 20-odd phases around the 65th minute in 2007 I didn't really expect us to lose.
Agreed. I actually thought at that stage that they'd worked through a difficult period in the match very well and would begin to pull away with it. Obviously the forward pass happened very shortly after that and we reverted to the quick recycle and ball retention style that got Rodders over. Sadly, it took far too long for us to realise that we would only win with a droppie, instead of the penalty which we were playing for
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
That’s interesting because that would suggest the coaches and the team didn’t adjust to what was happening. The scoreboard certainly suggested we were in it, but if your view is right then isn’t this the very thing Foster is currently being accused of and what Hansen is apparently guilty of in 2019?
I thought VM was talking about the Wales vs France loss in 2019 being worst than 2011 there but that is obviously wrong because I reread and he said 2007 and I misread.
When Rodders crashed over after 20-odd phases around the 65th minute in 2007 I didn't really expect us to lose.
Agreed. I actually thought at that stage that they'd worked through a difficult period in the match very well and would begin to pull away with it. Obviously the forward pass happened very shortly after that and we reverted to the quick recycle and ball retention style that got Rodders over. Sadly, it took far too long for us to realise that we would only win with a droppie, instead of the penalty which we were playing for
When you aren't privy to a deal made with the French, reality often doesn't dawn on you until it's too late
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Sadly, it took far too long for us to realise that we would only win with a droppie, instead of the penalty which we were playing for
The paradox is the longer they went not getting a penalty the more likely it felt like one was "due" given the weight of possession.
Tactically keeping possession playing for the try/penalty was the right call IMO as it had been in all the close tests the ABs had been a part of in the decade leading up to that (Eales and Burke's penalties Kefu & Lomu's tries in Bledisloe matches and Howlett stealing one against SA in Christchurch).
Obviously not having practiced setting up for an attempt should be criticized. From the 2011 semi and 2015 final we saw that having a viable drop kicking option was a useful weapon to exert scoreboard pressure.
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@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Sadly, it took far too long for us to realise that we would only win with a droppie, instead of the penalty which we were playing for
The paradox is the longer they went not getting a penalty the more likely it felt like one was "due" given the weight of possession.
Tactically keeping possession playing for the try/penalty was the right call IMO as it had been in all the close tests the ABs had been a part of in the decade leading up to that (Eales and Burke's penalties Kefu & Lomu's tries in Bledisloe matches and Howlett stealing one against SA in Christchurch).
Obviously not having practiced setting up for an attempt should be criticized. From the 2011 semi and 2015 final we saw that having a viable drop kicking option was a useful weapon to exert scoreboard pressure.
Not only scoreboard pressure. It forces a reshaping of defence, which increases chance of try, albeit maybe only at the margin.
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@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Tactically keeping possession playing for the try/penalty was the right call IMO
100% this. The thing that was such an aberration was the way that Rugby was being reffed at the time led to a bit of a penalty fest... almost always for the team in possession. It's simplistic to point at a forward pass as the key moment, and so the media and plenty of the public do that. But the real scandal there was the ref swallowing the whistle.
The good news is that I think these days that game gets reffed differently - and there's no way the forward pass stands
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@booboo said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
In order of angry/disappoint:
2007
1999
2003
1991
2019
19951995 was number 1 for sad
I think 1991 was hardest for me to take, I actually thought 1995 was the biggest wake up call for me, in that I woke up in morning and thought I was a little disappointed, but couldn't help but feel in a small way being pleased for what I thought it did for the people of SA. I truly believe from that day forward, I stopped thinking it was end of world when ABs lost a test etc, and actually enjoyed my rugby even more!
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Mine go a bit like this:
Most angry as results due to selection/coach stupidity: 2019, 2003.
Most gutted: 1995.
Most gutted in person: 1999. (Actually, with the backline selections this can go in first as well.)
Angry but we got a bit screwed so was easier to take: 2007.
Resigned to the fact we weren't going to win due to the NZRFU decisions: 1991. (TBH this might just be hindsight, I think teenage me was doing a lot of swearing at the TV, especially at God for not letting MJ play Sundays.)
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2003 was a tough one, I was temping in Sydney and working with loads of Aussies and Poms.
On the Friday before the semi finals one feral chick from the Hutt proudly told everyone that “we’ll see youse ( meaning England ) in the final”…..we all know how that played out.
She never came back to work after that bold prediction.
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@nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Mine go a bit like this:
Most angry as results due to selection/coach stupidity: 2019, 2003.
Most gutted: 1995.
Most gutted in person: 1999. (Actually, with the backline selections this can go in first as well.)
Angry but we got a bit screwed so was easier to take: 2007.
Remarkably similar to mine.
1995 was the closest the ABs will likely ever come to having a Cinderella run. Fourth favourites going into the tournament and then Lomu and Mehrts play their second tests in the opener and it's off to the races.
1999 was a shock but I still thought it was a coin flip against Australia or South Africa if they made the final so I didn't really feel like we blew a certain RWC there (although Lomu firing up in England game, and then early in the semi did make one feel that we had turned a corner).
2003 was a shock. I was at the 50 point drubbing earlier that year in Sydney and wasn't privvy to a lot of the unrest in the camp. Absolute shock that one. But in hindsight understandable.
2007 I basically put in the same basket as the 2019 CWC Final. It wasn't to be... there was plenty to fault and nothing to fault at the same time.
2019 like many here I saw coming from a mile off after they didn't seem to learn any lessons after Chicago/Lions Tour/Twickenham/Dublin. That wasn't a side capable of winning three big tests in a row.
The issues in 1995 could have been solved with a better chef.
The issues in 2003 and 2007 could have been solved during the tournament.
The issues in 1991, 1999 and 2019 were probably too far gone before the tournament started. -
2019 was by far the easiest to take. Plain and simple we got smashed from the start and never looked like winning. It reminded me a bit of 2011 semi ABs v Wobs where the scoreboard flattered the losing side. There were plenty of signs in the few years leading up that the ABs would stumble and it was the first RWC loss for the ABs since 2007.
On the flip side though I found the adulation of Hansen a bit too much post RWC Semi final loss - the 3rd/4th match was like a farewell tour and there was next to no criticism of him/ABs after a stuttering last few years.
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@kiwimurph said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
On the flip side though I found the adulation of Hansen a bit too much post RWC Semi final loss - the 3rd/4th match was like a farewell tour and there was next to no criticism of him/ABs after a stuttering last few years.
He wanted to go in 2017, and I was stoked at the time that he stayed on. In hindsight, it would have been a good break - a dodgily drawn Lions series ravaged by injuries ... but at least not a loss. RWC was a bridge too far, and I think a lot of the people (team and coaches) got stale.
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@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Mine go a bit like this:
Most angry as results due to selection/coach stupidity: 2019, 2003.
Most gutted: 1995.
Most gutted in person: 1999. (Actually, with the backline selections this can go in first as well.)
Angry but we got a bit screwed so was easier to take: 2007.
Remarkably similar to mine.
1995 was the closest the ABs will likely ever come to having a Cinderella run. Fourth favourites going into the tournament and then Lomu and Mehrts play their second tests in the opener and it's off to the races.
1999 was a shock but I still thought it was a coin flip against Australia or South Africa if they made the final so I didn't really feel like we blew a certain RWC there (although Lomu firing up in England game, and then early in the semi did make one feel that we had turned a corner).
2003 was a shock. I was at the 50 point drubbing earlier that year in Sydney and wasn't privvy to a lot of the unrest in the camp. Absolute shock that one. But in hindsight understandable.
2007 I basically put in the same basket as the 2019 CWC Final. It wasn't to be... there was plenty to fault and nothing to fault at the same time.
2019 like many here I saw coming from a mile off after they didn't seem to learn any lessons after Chicago/Lions Tour/Twickenham/Dublin. That wasn't a side capable of winning three big tests in a row.
The issues in 1995 could have been solved with a better chef.
The issues in 2003 and 2007 could have been solved during the tournament.
The issues in 1991, 1999 and 2019 were probably too far gone before the tournament started.I think that’s spot on. I don’t think they deserved to win or were good enough to win in 91, 99, 03 and 19. They were the best team in 1995 and 2007 (you could argue they had the best 2 teams) and that’s why those hurt the most by far, particularly when considering the rather freakish circumstances surrounding those losses.
There has been some rotten luck as well. Aus were a bee’s dick away from losing to Ireland in 91. I don’t think the Irish would have had the legs to back that up in the semis and we would have (rather undeservedly) won the cup.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I think that’s spot on. I don’t think they deserved to win or were good enough to win in 91, 99, 03 and 19. They were the best team in 1995 and 2007 (you could argue they had the best 2 teams) and that’s why those hurt the most by far, particularly when considering the rather freakish circumstances surrounding those losses.
There has been some rotten luck as well. Aus were a bee’s dick away from losing to Ireland in 91. I don’t think the Irish would have had the legs to back that up in the semis and we would have (rather undeservedly) won the cup.
The inverse of that is true in 2003 though. The core of that Australian team who wouldn't win a Bledisloe Cup game between 2003-2006 went to extra time against England in the final, and we toweled them 3-0 the next year.
But adding to the sliding doors:
In1995 France/South Africa semi-final was robbery. We should have played France in the final. (but also if the pools were inversed, Lomu's game against England never happens and we play in the rain in Durban and who knows... )
In 1999 France should have been on the other side of the draw if Paddy O'Brien hadn't have bottled the Fiji/France game.
In 2003 - Mils in the corner.
In 2007 - Pick anything from Lauaki's suspension which was overturned too late for him to be included in the 22 onward.
In 2019 - Who knows the result of France vs England? But more realistically if Japan didn't tip over Ireland and we get Japan in the QF? -
The thing with RWCs is that with the exception of 87 there is one hairy game the eventual winner has to get through.
Basically in 95 and 07 ABs weren't able to get through that game.
In 91 it was Aus vs Ireland
In 95 it was both the final and the semi final for the Boks
in 99 it was the semi final for Aus
in 03 it was the final for England
in 07 it was the QF vs Fiji for Boks.
11 it was the final
15 it was the semi final ABs v Boks
19 it was the semi final Wales v Boks -
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Mine go a bit like this:
Most angry as results due to selection/coach stupidity: 2019, 2003.
Most gutted: 1995.
Most gutted in person: 1999. (Actually, with the backline selections this can go in first as well.)
Angry but we got a bit screwed so was easier to take: 2007.
Remarkably similar to mine.
1995 was the closest the ABs will likely ever come to having a Cinderella run. Fourth favourites going into the tournament and then Lomu and Mehrts play their second tests in the opener and it's off to the races.
Fifth by my reckoning, and the preview mag I bought but since lost ...
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@kiwimurph said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
The thing with RWCs is that with the exception of 87 there is one hairy game the eventual winner has to get through.
Basically in 95 and 07 ABs weren't able to get through that game.
In 91 it was Aus vs Ireland
In 95 it was both the final and the semi final for the Boks
in 99 it was the semi final for Aus
in 03 it was the final for England
in 07 it was the QF vs Fiji for Boks.
11 it was the final
15 it was the semi final ABs v Boks
19 it was the semi final Wales v BoksNot to mention Samoa and Wales ...
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@booboo said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Mine go a bit like this:
Most angry as results due to selection/coach stupidity: 2019, 2003.
Most gutted: 1995.
Most gutted in person: 1999. (Actually, with the backline selections this can go in first as well.)
Angry but we got a bit screwed so was easier to take: 2007.
Remarkably similar to mine.
1995 was the closest the ABs will likely ever come to having a Cinderella run. Fourth favourites going into the tournament and then Lomu and Mehrts play their second tests in the opener and it's off to the races.
Fifth by my reckoning, and the preview mag I bought but since lost ...
I will stick too that story and can't see a compelling reason we would have been rated above Australia, France, England or the Boks (at home) going into it.
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@rotated Other than that we 'd beaten the Boks in SA in 92 and in NZ in 94,beaten the Lions in 93, had a record against Oz of 2-1-2 since the 91 RWC having drawn the last match in Sydney , had lost narrowly to England away with an under strength team and should have drawn the series against France in 04 but for the "try from the ends of the earth"
95 was probably the most even comp (pre the tournament) there's ever been. I still rated OZ the #1 because they'd given us the hardest matches and were reigning champs, SA at home were going to be a threat but I still fancied us. I didn't rate the Poms at all (the year didn't end in a 3). France were France and should have been in the final.
The reality was Lomu came good, Bachop came back and the debutants, Mehrts, Kronfeld and Osborne were the missing components that made for an outstanding team.
