Worst All Black RWC exits
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@godder said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I'm a little more concerned that All Black teams no longer continually show ruthlessness. The ability to keep a foot on their throat and grind them into a dark place mentally. Giving up points late in the game when the result isn't in doubt, and through very poor discipline suggests to me that the hard lessons of the 2007 exit are lost on this group.
Blame the NZRFU and the public for that. There are none left who were there in 2007, and this group was immediately forgiven for the fuck-up of 2019 - the official response was to appoint one of the losing coaches to the top job, and the general public at large didn't seem to give a shit about the loss or that appointment. If no-one seems to care from those two groups, I'm not sure why we think the players should learn anything.
Foster's hire should have been commensurate with us winning in Japan. Why did we want to stay the course after how things played out? Lazy by the NZRFU
Isn't that at odds with one of the other lessons of 2007? Retaining a losing head coach paid off handsomely in 2011 and 2015.
At the risk of harnessing the benefit of hindsight, I think the situations were different. In 2007 we had a young core that ended up being the foundation of 2011 and 2015. And it is hard to compare GH, Wayne Smith and Hansen (all coaches with previous test nation experience) and Fozzie's coaching team.
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@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@godder said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I'm a little more concerned that All Black teams no longer continually show ruthlessness. The ability to keep a foot on their throat and grind them into a dark place mentally. Giving up points late in the game when the result isn't in doubt, and through very poor discipline suggests to me that the hard lessons of the 2007 exit are lost on this group.
Blame the NZRFU and the public for that. There are none left who were there in 2007, and this group was immediately forgiven for the fuck-up of 2019 - the official response was to appoint one of the losing coaches to the top job, and the general public at large didn't seem to give a shit about the loss or that appointment. If no-one seems to care from those two groups, I'm not sure why we think the players should learn anything.
Foster's hire should have been commensurate with us winning in Japan. Why did we want to stay the course after how things played out? Lazy by the NZRFU
Isn't that at odds with one of the other lessons of 2007? Retaining a losing head coach paid off handsomely in 2011 and 2015.
At the risk of harnessing the benefit of hindsight, I think the situations were different. In 2007 we had a young core that ended up being the foundation of 2011 and 2015. And it is hard to compare GH, Wayne Smith and Hansen (all coaches with previous test nation experience) and Fozzie's coaching team.
Agree they aren't identical situations by any means, but of the lessons was don't be hasty, so perhaps they have overapplied that lesson (agree that Fozzy isn't of the calibre of the previous brains trust).
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@godder said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@godder said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I'm a little more concerned that All Black teams no longer continually show ruthlessness. The ability to keep a foot on their throat and grind them into a dark place mentally. Giving up points late in the game when the result isn't in doubt, and through very poor discipline suggests to me that the hard lessons of the 2007 exit are lost on this group.
Blame the NZRFU and the public for that. There are none left who were there in 2007, and this group was immediately forgiven for the fuck-up of 2019 - the official response was to appoint one of the losing coaches to the top job, and the general public at large didn't seem to give a shit about the loss or that appointment. If no-one seems to care from those two groups, I'm not sure why we think the players should learn anything.
Foster's hire should have been commensurate with us winning in Japan. Why did we want to stay the course after how things played out? Lazy by the NZRFU
Isn't that at odds with one of the other lessons of 2007? Retaining a losing head coach paid off handsomely in 2011 and 2015.
At the risk of harnessing the benefit of hindsight, I think the situations were different. In 2007 we had a young core that ended up being the foundation of 2011 and 2015. And it is hard to compare GH, Wayne Smith and Hansen (all coaches with previous test nation experience) and Fozzie's coaching team.
Agree they aren't identical situations by any means, but of the lessons was don't be hasty, so perhaps they have overapplied that lesson (agree that Fozzy isn't of the calibre of the previous brains trust).
The way it ended in 2019, and the outside perception of Fozzie's role in Hansen's group, and based in no small part to his Chiefs tenure, he has work to do to win over many people, lots of ferners included. We can't get rid of him ourselves, so he has time and opportunity to win hearts and minds by his actions
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I think reappointing Henry was really just an acknowledgement from the NZRFU that we got absolutely fucking screwed in that quarter final.
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@no-quarter said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I think reappointing Henry was really just an acknowledgement from the NZRFU that we got absolutely fucking screwed in that quarter final.
... And the remarkable body of work he'd put together. The contrast with Foster is massive
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@dmx said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
2019 we lost solely because of own our fault - no external factors involved.
I think England were an external factor, honestly don't think there was much between ABs, Boks and England, on any given day any of the three teams could have won imho. England caught us flat, Boks caught England flat.
I don't know, they really had our number. No doubt Hansen and co would have had a better answer if we were allowed a rematch but good coaching should have an answer by the second half and we didn't.
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@nzzp Foster must present really well or be great mates with the selection panel. I can't think of any other reason.
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@nostrildamus said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nzzp Foster must
present really well orbe great mates with the selection panel. I can't think of any other reason.FIFY
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@pakman said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
In Times [EDIT] today WB said the TMO spotted it real time, but wasn’t allowed to inform onfield team.
In 2007 I was the referee of the World Cup quarter-final between France and New Zealand. Between myself and the officials I was in charge of, we missed the forward pass from Damien Traille to Frédéric Michalak for the match-winning try. Chris White, the television match official, knew that the ball had gone forward but he couldn’t intervene. At that time, you could only turn to the TMO for the grounding of the ball. That meant Chris had to sit there, inert, and accept the decision. But New Zealand were knocked out, and the forward pass is central to many people’s memories of that match.
As a referee and as a rugby fan, that’s the last thing I want.
There is something so passive and obtuse the way he always talks about that game that shits me to tears.
I still don't understand how he managed to be 25-30 metres away from the forward pass on first phase ball off an attacking scrum.
It was really the combination of three mistakes from Barnesy that sunk that game.
- The lack of a penalty in the last 60 minutes despite 60%+ possession.
- The McAllister yellow card (could the TMO have intervened on that farce I wonder?)
- The forward pass.
We likely could have survived two of those, but all three plus the injuries to Carter and then Evans was insurmountable.
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@victor-meldrew said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@pakman said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@pakman said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.
Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges
In ToryGraph today WB said the TMO spotted it real time, but wasn’t allowed to inform onfield team.
👺👺
It’s taken him 14 years to confirm that?
We wus robbed!
Plenty more years for that rugby chip to be on our collective shoulders.
Bob Deans scored by the way.
I was at the 2007 game, but at the risk of repeating myself, I found the 2019 exit worse.
We were never really in the 2007 game after the 1st half - in 2019 we seemed to bugger up opportunity after opportunity to win the game
That’s interesting because that would suggest the coaches and the team didn’t adjust to what was happening. The scoreboard certainly suggested we were in it, but if your view is right then isn’t this the very thing Foster is currently being accused of and what Hansen is apparently guilty of in 2019?
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@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
That’s interesting because that would suggest the coaches and the team didn’t adjust to what was happening. The scoreboard certainly suggested we were in it, but if your view is right then isn’t this the very thing Foster is currently being accused of and what Hansen is apparently guilty of in 2019?
I thought VM was talking about the Wales vs France loss in 2019 being worst than 2011 there but that is obviously wrong because I reread and he said 2007 and I misread.
When Rodders crashed over after 20-odd phases around the 65th minute in 2007 I didn't really expect us to lose.
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@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
That’s interesting because that would suggest the coaches and the team didn’t adjust to what was happening. The scoreboard certainly suggested we were in it, but if your view is right then isn’t this the very thing Foster is currently being accused of and what Hansen is apparently guilty of in 2019?
VM is talking about Wales isn't he (I think?).
Who posts anything other than about the All Blacks when 2007 is mentioned 😎
As you were if it was about Wales.
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@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
That’s interesting because that would suggest the coaches and the team didn’t adjust to what was happening. The scoreboard certainly suggested we were in it, but if your view is right then isn’t this the very thing Foster is currently being accused of and what Hansen is apparently guilty of in 2019?
VM is talking about Wales isn't he (I think?).
Who posts anything other than about the All Blacks when 2007 is mentioned 😎
As you were if it was about Wales.
I edited above - I misread 2007 as 2011.
The comment that we weren't in the 2007 QF after the second half confused me as we had the lead pre-intercept and had probably played the better rugby in the second half to that point even with the backline being shuffled due to the Evans and Carter injuries.
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@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
That’s interesting because that would suggest the coaches and the team didn’t adjust to what was happening.
I think McCaw said exactly that - particularly the refereeing. In 2019 we seemed to adapt but lost concentration and made dumb errors at key points.
But I could be looking at things thru the opposite of rose-coloured glasses,
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@godder said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I'm a little more concerned that All Black teams no longer continually show ruthlessness. The ability to keep a foot on their throat and grind them into a dark place mentally. Giving up points late in the game when the result isn't in doubt, and through very poor discipline suggests to me that the hard lessons of the 2007 exit are lost on this group.
Blame the NZRFU and the public for that. There are none left who were there in 2007, and this group was immediately forgiven for the fuck-up of 2019 - the official response was to appoint one of the losing coaches to the top job, and the general public at large didn't seem to give a shit about the loss or that appointment. If no-one seems to care from those two groups, I'm not sure why we think the players should learn anything.
Foster's hire should have been commensurate with us winning in Japan. Why did we want to stay the course after how things played out? Lazy by the NZRFU
Isn't that at odds with one of the other lessons of 2007? Retaining a losing head coach paid off handsomely in 2011 and 2015.
Well 2007 was somewhat of an aberration, as was apparently highlighted in Ted's interview for re-appointment after 2007.
In any event, the trajectory was obviously upwards from where the team were in 2004 when he took over. Whereas, with Fozzie, the team's trajectory had been slowly and steadily in decline from 2016 and only likely to get worse after his re-appointment given retirements and others moving offshore after 2019.
That could possibly explain why he was re-appointed - i.e. the decline is inevitable so why tarnish the reputation of an otherwise talented candidate?
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@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
That’s interesting because that would suggest the coaches and the team didn’t adjust to what was happening. The scoreboard certainly suggested we were in it, but if your view is right then isn’t this the very thing Foster is currently being accused of and what Hansen is apparently guilty of in 2019?
I thought VM was talking about the Wales vs France loss in 2019 being worst than 2011 there but that is obviously wrong because I reread and he said 2007 and I misread.
When Rodders crashed over after 20-odd phases around the 65th minute in 2007 I didn't really expect us to lose.
Agreed. I actually thought at that stage that they'd worked through a difficult period in the match very well and would begin to pull away with it. Obviously the forward pass happened very shortly after that and we reverted to the quick recycle and ball retention style that got Rodders over. Sadly, it took far too long for us to realise that we would only win with a droppie, instead of the penalty which we were playing for
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
That’s interesting because that would suggest the coaches and the team didn’t adjust to what was happening. The scoreboard certainly suggested we were in it, but if your view is right then isn’t this the very thing Foster is currently being accused of and what Hansen is apparently guilty of in 2019?
I thought VM was talking about the Wales vs France loss in 2019 being worst than 2011 there but that is obviously wrong because I reread and he said 2007 and I misread.
When Rodders crashed over after 20-odd phases around the 65th minute in 2007 I didn't really expect us to lose.
Agreed. I actually thought at that stage that they'd worked through a difficult period in the match very well and would begin to pull away with it. Obviously the forward pass happened very shortly after that and we reverted to the quick recycle and ball retention style that got Rodders over. Sadly, it took far too long for us to realise that we would only win with a droppie, instead of the penalty which we were playing for
When you aren't privy to a deal made with the French, reality often doesn't dawn on you until it's too late
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Sadly, it took far too long for us to realise that we would only win with a droppie, instead of the penalty which we were playing for
The paradox is the longer they went not getting a penalty the more likely it felt like one was "due" given the weight of possession.
Tactically keeping possession playing for the try/penalty was the right call IMO as it had been in all the close tests the ABs had been a part of in the decade leading up to that (Eales and Burke's penalties Kefu & Lomu's tries in Bledisloe matches and Howlett stealing one against SA in Christchurch).
Obviously not having practiced setting up for an attempt should be criticized. From the 2011 semi and 2015 final we saw that having a viable drop kicking option was a useful weapon to exert scoreboard pressure.
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@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Sadly, it took far too long for us to realise that we would only win with a droppie, instead of the penalty which we were playing for
The paradox is the longer they went not getting a penalty the more likely it felt like one was "due" given the weight of possession.
Tactically keeping possession playing for the try/penalty was the right call IMO as it had been in all the close tests the ABs had been a part of in the decade leading up to that (Eales and Burke's penalties Kefu & Lomu's tries in Bledisloe matches and Howlett stealing one against SA in Christchurch).
Obviously not having practiced setting up for an attempt should be criticized. From the 2011 semi and 2015 final we saw that having a viable drop kicking option was a useful weapon to exert scoreboard pressure.
Not only scoreboard pressure. It forces a reshaping of defence, which increases chance of try, albeit maybe only at the margin.
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@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Tactically keeping possession playing for the try/penalty was the right call IMO
100% this. The thing that was such an aberration was the way that Rugby was being reffed at the time led to a bit of a penalty fest... almost always for the team in possession. It's simplistic to point at a forward pass as the key moment, and so the media and plenty of the public do that. But the real scandal there was the ref swallowing the whistle.
The good news is that I think these days that game gets reffed differently - and there's no way the forward pass stands
