Players to build the team around?
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@Derpus said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B yeesh who cares about provincial form when assessing who the worlds best is? it's not the hardest form of rugby there is. Rubbish.
It's a hell of a lot better than saying Handre Pollard is the best because he won one game.
Why would you bother watching Super rugby, if you think it has no relevance to international rugby?
I am vastly more dismissive of your comment than you are of mine!
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@KiwiMurph said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B That's fair.
I just think with the angle Richie had that's a really poor error - he was 15 metres in field kicking with his right foot.
Which comes back to my original point - Sanchez didn't make such errors.
Yeah - I didn't think we had a vast disagreement, given you said that philosophically you agreed at the start.
I'd need to go back and see whether Sanchez tried ambitiously for touch and frankly, I'm not going to.
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@KiwiMurph Didn't Richie do that a couple of weeks before?
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@Chris-B said in Players to build the team around?:
@KiwiMurph Didn't Richie do that a couple of weeks before?
Wasn't my point that Sanchez outplayed Mounga on Saturday?
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@KiwiMurph I'm not disagreeing - I'm saying I can't comment with any authority without watching the game again. And you might have to pay me to do that.
You wouldn't want me to just sycophantically agree with you, would you?
Edit: What I will say based on a significant body of watching is that I would not swap Richie for Sanchez, without a large additional pile of cash!
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@hydro11 said in Players to build the team around?:
@gt12 said in Players to build the team around?:
I think we should be questioning whether this 'two playmakers' strategy is working.
In the tests in which Barrett and Mo'unga have started together over the past two years (Mo'unga 10, Barrett 15), we've got a 64% winning percentage (7/11), with 3 losses and one draw. If we include the Oz draw this year where Dmac replaced an injured Barrett, the winning percentage drops to 58%!
If Mo'unga is at 10, then isn't Beauden Barrett just the best fullback anyway? So if Mo'unga is your 10, then it is more about tactics and how you use Beaudy at fullback. If Beauden isn't at fullback, then Jordie is probably there who is a second play maker anyway.
I don't think Will Jordan has done enough to be starting fullback right now.
Yep, I'm trying to point to the issue without necessarily saying that Mo'unga is the problem, but OK, we have a 64% winning percentage when he starts in the 10 jersey. There are some terrible results in there too - the smashing in Perth, the loss to England, and the loss to the Argies.
Is that record acceptable?
Do we think we'd have the same percentage if we have committed to just keeping Barrett at 10?
I don't really think Barrett is a great 10, but as a starter at 10 (I'm using ESPN data from 2016), he has an 86% winning percentage.
If we look at 2018-2020 (i.e., the same time that Mo'unga has been around in the team), he has a 79% winning percentage starting at 10 with 3 losses (South Africa in Wellington, Ireland at Landsdown Road, and OZ in Brisbane). Two of those losses were by 2 points.
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@gt12 I think the smashing in Perth was largely the result of Scott Barrett's red card (though Rieko Ioane being a bit shit didn't help @Nepia).
World Cup semi-final - we had Richie and Beauden both on the field. Was that our major problem? I'm inclined to think our lineout and forwards getting the shit beaten out of them was a bigger one.
The loss to the Argies was as limp as fuck. No-one gets any credit, really.
There's an old thread I started a couple of years ago, called something like "How are we tracking ", where I started by comparing our 2015 RWC team with what we were likely to field for 2019.
And it was very clear that we have gone backwards almost entirely across the board.
Edit: Look at what we had in 2015 compared with today - and don't forget to factor in age and form!
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By the way, I wasn't necessarily trying to start a 'dump Mo'unga' discussion, just trying to further my point that this 'picking both' selection policy isn't working.
At the core of that is the idea that we are better with 'dual playmakers,' but there is not much evidence to support that as a strategy for starting matches.
We've done well with it when we've used explosive individuals with playmaking ability late in games - primarily Barrett and then Mackenzie.
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@Derpus We'll probably have to agree to differ on Pollard.
When I first saw him in Under-19s or Schools (giving us a decent thumping whatever it was), I thought he'd be a world beater - but, I don't think he kicked on as I expected.
I don't think you can simply discount Pollard's years of playing for a Super rugby team that was substandard, so I've taken exception to you discounting Moúnga's dominance at that level.
My conclusion - which is pretty much where I started - is that currently there's no frontrunner among test first fives - and Mo'unga might be the best.
I have found none of you guys arguments compelling!
Lift your games!
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@gt12 said in Players to build the team around?:
By the way, I wasn't necessarily trying to start a 'dump Mo'unga' discussion, just trying to further my point that this 'picking both' selection policy isn't working.
At the core of that is the idea that we are better with 'dual playmakers,' but there is not much evidence to support that as a strategy for starting matches.
We've done well with it when we've used explosive individuals with playmaking ability late in games - primarily Barrett and then Mackenzie.
Yeah, I know. And it may go back to the thing that (I think it was you posted) about us trying to pick pairs.
The thing about Mo'unga's missed tackle is that he's not the first or last first five they've tried to hide on defense. And he is nowhere close to the likes of DC in defense.
What Mo'unga does do - better than anyone else, IMO - is play well in traffic. He's Carlos Mk II. So with a rush defense, I think his catch, pass, run decisions/execution are better than pretty much anyone. He's also got fantastic acceleration - at least close to Barrett, even if he doesn't have quite the top end speed.
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@Chris-B said in Players to build the team around?:
@KiwiMurph said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B The risk/reward associated with being one or two metres closer just doesn't add up in a test match which is all about taking your opportunities and minimising errors.
I think I just take into account the exponential risk of having to drive a few extra metres and want Richie to say, "I'm Richie "Big Balls" Mo'unga. I'm backing myself to kick this ball where I usually do. I am taking responsibility (and the glare of the national spotlight if it goes wrong) rather than asking my forwards to cover my arse when the heat is on."
doesn't really matter whether it's Richie or Beauden or Jordie (or Mitch) I want them to go for it - take responsibility and back themselves.
With all due respect, you're not making the right comparison. The right comparison is between being 10-15m out from the opposition try line (from where you can maul or maul and then go wider etc.) and being back on halfway defending an opposition line out.
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@junior said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B said in Players to build the team around?:
@KiwiMurph said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B The risk/reward associated with being one or two metres closer just doesn't add up in a test match which is all about taking your opportunities and minimising errors.
I think I just take into account the exponential risk of having to drive a few extra metres and want Richie to say, "I'm Richie "Big Balls" Mo'unga. I'm backing myself to kick this ball where I usually do. I am taking responsibility (and the glare of the national spotlight if it goes wrong) rather than asking my forwards to cover my arse when the heat is on."
doesn't really matter whether it's Richie or Beauden or Jordie (or Mitch) I want them to go for it - take responsibility and back themselves.
I think it's this....
The right comparison is between being 10-15m out from the opposition try line (from where you can maul or maul and then go wider etc.) and 80% having a lineout 5 metres out; and 20% being back on halfway defending an opposition line out.
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@Chris-B said in Players to build the team around?:
@gt12 said in Players to build the team around?:
By the way, I wasn't necessarily trying to start a 'dump Mo'unga' discussion, just trying to further my point that this 'picking both' selection policy isn't working.
At the core of that is the idea that we are better with 'dual playmakers,' but there is not much evidence to support that as a strategy for starting matches.
We've done well with it when we've used explosive individuals with playmaking ability late in games - primarily Barrett and then Mackenzie.
Yeah, I know. And it may go back to the thing that (I think it was you posted) about us trying to pick pairs.
The thing about Mo'unga's missed tackle is that he's not the first or last first five they've tried to hide on defense. And he is nowhere close to the likes of DC in defense.
What Mo'unga does do - better than anyone else, IMO - is play well in traffic. He's Carlos Mk II. So with a rush defense, I think his catch, pass, run decisions/execution are better than pretty much anyone. He's also got fantastic acceleration - at least close to Barrett, even if he doesn't have quite the top end speed.
He's been sub-par when playing against the rush defence, just like everyone else. His ability in traffic is a bit of a red herring because one of the objectives of the rush defence - other than catching a ball-carrier in midfield begins the advantage line - is to force the attacking team back into channel 1 / 2 where the defensive backrow can again go smash and force a turnover. We don't therefore need a midget chopping back in when forced (you're better served by taking that space first with some bulk a la SBW circa Lions I). In any event, he hasn't exactly been using his footwork to beat the rush defence, as he's been as guilty as BB of taking the ball flat footed and shovelling shit to his midfield.
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