Players to build the team around?
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@KiwiMurph I'm saying that if you're Richie, you don't change your strategy based on the scoreboard.
You do change it based on the field position you're kicking from.
If he would usually aim for 5 metres and goal from there - then I want him to do it now.
If he's decided to push it, then he shouldn't have.
Otherwise, for me it's just the one in five that go wrong.
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@junior said in Players to build the team around?:
@MN5 said in Players to build the team around?:
@junior said in Players to build the team around?:
@mariner4life said in Players to build the team around?:
@nzzp Joost is my guy
Smith is better than both the Australians IMO, and Murray as well. They all played different game styles though.
As far as "modern" halfbacks go, Joost best all around and then Fourie du Preez, IMO. FDP gets extra marks for playing an expanded role as his team's chief playmaker too.
Of the rest, it's Smith for me - Gregan had good chat, but once his running game disappeared we all realised how laboured his pass could be. Genia never quite maintained his excellent start, despite having all the tools. Murray is a bit like Marshall - a great rugby player first and foremost, but not a technically "pure" halfback (albeit a perfect fit for the team he plays in). None of the Welsh halfbacks (all of whom were very decent rugby players) really held the spot long enough (except for Howley), probably due to there being lots of competition. England, surprisingly, hasn't produced a lot of decent 9s - Ben Youngs (the English TJ) playing 100 tests says a lot.
DuPont looks like he might be able to surpass them all, but he is French so would not be surprised if he becomes highly erratic or falls out with a coach at some point, both of which might impact his final standing in the game.
Mike Phillips was a very good running halfback but possibly too Marshall like to be a great
Yep, squarely in the Marshall mold of being a great footy player and a hell of a competitor but probably lacking in technical and play making ability to be considered an all-time great (also the Welsh have produced many, many great halfbacks better than him).
99 tests and five for the Lions. That's a bloody good resume though.
Big dude in the flesh too, I was shocked we were eye to eye when I saw him in Welly, I think standing next to Charteris on TV made me think he was about 5-9 tops......
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Is Richie getting rated in test rugby based on his Super form? He's been so average as a test 10 recently that I've wanted BB back at 10 despite the fact he's not really a 10.
Hopefully Mo'unga finds his feet at international level and turns into the guy @Chris-B is clearly madly in love with.
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I think we should be questioning whether this 'two playmakers' strategy is working.
In the tests in which Barrett and Mo'unga have started together over the past two years (Mo'unga 10, Barrett 15), we've got a 64% winning percentage (7/11), with 3 losses and one draw. If we include the Oz draw this year where Dmac replaced an injured Barrett, the winning percentage drops to 58%!
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@Nepia To an extent - but, as a Super rugby first five he's been by far the best for the past four years. And people will say, "But Crusaders..."and those who have paid attention will say "...have regularly struggled when anyone but Richie has been at the helm".
If we're going to have Handre Pollard as the World's best, we're going to have to ignore a great deal of Super rugby evidence.
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@KiwiMurph said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B The risk/reward associated with being one or two metres closer just doesn't add up in a test match which is all about taking your opportunities and minimising errors.
I'm not so sure that is true. I would say the difference between a 15 metre line out and a 20 metreline out is negligible because you don't maul it over from there. When you start to talk about 5 metres vs 10 metres, you are talking about a different kettle of fish. I'm happy for players to go for the metres but they have to be accurate enough that it tips in favour.
I also don't think the score board should matter. If going for the kick 5 metres out is our best chance of scoring, than go for it. Ultimately, Mo'unga just didn't execute. We wouldn't be talking about it if it was a one off but it is now a pattern.
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@gt12 said in Players to build the team around?:
I think we should be questioning whether this 'two playmakers' strategy is working.
In the tests in which Barrett and Mo'unga have started together over the past two years (Mo'unga 10, Barrett 15), we've got a 64% winning percentage (7/11), with 3 losses and one draw. If we include the Oz draw this year where Dmac replaced an injured Barrett, the winning percentage drops to 58%!
If Mo'unga is at 10, then isn't Beauden Barrett just the best fullback anyway? So if Mo'unga is your 10, then it is more about tactics and how you use Beaudy at fullback. If Beauden isn't at fullback, then Jordie is probably there who is a second play maker anyway.
I don't think Will Jordan has done enough to be starting fullback right now.
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@KiwiMurph said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B The risk/reward associated with being one or two metres closer just doesn't add up in a test match which is all about taking your opportunities and minimising errors.
I think I just take into account the exponential risk of having to drive a few extra metres and want Richie to say, "I'm Richie "Big Balls" Mo'unga. I'm backing myself to kick this ball where I usually do. I am taking responsibility (and the glare of the national spotlight if it goes wrong) rather than asking my forwards to cover my arse when the heat is on."
doesn't really matter whether it's Richie or Beauden or Jordie (or Mitch) I want them to go for it - take responsibility and back themselves.
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@Derpus said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B yeesh who cares about provincial form when assessing who the worlds best is? it's not the hardest form of rugby there is. Rubbish.
It's a hell of a lot better than saying Handre Pollard is the best because he won one game.
Why would you bother watching Super rugby, if you think it has no relevance to international rugby?
I am vastly more dismissive of your comment than you are of mine!
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@KiwiMurph said in Players to build the team around?:
@Chris-B That's fair.
I just think with the angle Richie had that's a really poor error - he was 15 metres in field kicking with his right foot.
Which comes back to my original point - Sanchez didn't make such errors.
Yeah - I didn't think we had a vast disagreement, given you said that philosophically you agreed at the start.
I'd need to go back and see whether Sanchez tried ambitiously for touch and frankly, I'm not going to.
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@KiwiMurph Didn't Richie do that a couple of weeks before?
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@Chris-B said in Players to build the team around?:
@KiwiMurph Didn't Richie do that a couple of weeks before?
Wasn't my point that Sanchez outplayed Mounga on Saturday?
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@KiwiMurph I'm not disagreeing - I'm saying I can't comment with any authority without watching the game again. And you might have to pay me to do that.
You wouldn't want me to just sycophantically agree with you, would you?
Edit: What I will say based on a significant body of watching is that I would not swap Richie for Sanchez, without a large additional pile of cash!
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@hydro11 said in Players to build the team around?:
@gt12 said in Players to build the team around?:
I think we should be questioning whether this 'two playmakers' strategy is working.
In the tests in which Barrett and Mo'unga have started together over the past two years (Mo'unga 10, Barrett 15), we've got a 64% winning percentage (7/11), with 3 losses and one draw. If we include the Oz draw this year where Dmac replaced an injured Barrett, the winning percentage drops to 58%!
If Mo'unga is at 10, then isn't Beauden Barrett just the best fullback anyway? So if Mo'unga is your 10, then it is more about tactics and how you use Beaudy at fullback. If Beauden isn't at fullback, then Jordie is probably there who is a second play maker anyway.
I don't think Will Jordan has done enough to be starting fullback right now.
Yep, I'm trying to point to the issue without necessarily saying that Mo'unga is the problem, but OK, we have a 64% winning percentage when he starts in the 10 jersey. There are some terrible results in there too - the smashing in Perth, the loss to England, and the loss to the Argies.
Is that record acceptable?
Do we think we'd have the same percentage if we have committed to just keeping Barrett at 10?
I don't really think Barrett is a great 10, but as a starter at 10 (I'm using ESPN data from 2016), he has an 86% winning percentage.
If we look at 2018-2020 (i.e., the same time that Mo'unga has been around in the team), he has a 79% winning percentage starting at 10 with 3 losses (South Africa in Wellington, Ireland at Landsdown Road, and OZ in Brisbane). Two of those losses were by 2 points.
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@gt12 I think the smashing in Perth was largely the result of Scott Barrett's red card (though Rieko Ioane being a bit shit didn't help @Nepia).
World Cup semi-final - we had Richie and Beauden both on the field. Was that our major problem? I'm inclined to think our lineout and forwards getting the shit beaten out of them was a bigger one.
The loss to the Argies was as limp as fuck. No-one gets any credit, really.
There's an old thread I started a couple of years ago, called something like "How are we tracking ", where I started by comparing our 2015 RWC team with what we were likely to field for 2019.
And it was very clear that we have gone backwards almost entirely across the board.
Edit: Look at what we had in 2015 compared with today - and don't forget to factor in age and form!
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