The Cane vs Savea Debate
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@gt12 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Could Ardie be our next Rodders though? I see plenty of similarities but like Rodders there are detractors and critics that say we aren’t getting this or that.
Savea’s workrate has really lifted and I was critical of him last year of ball watching a bit and looking to pounce. This year he has been very involved.
Balance is key but I know when the Collins, McCaw, Rodders trio started there were many critics of a lack of balance. Some wanted Lauaki or Tuiali’i or a taller LO option blindside etc. I thought that after time together they worked out how utilise their strengths to the benefit of the team.
I love Rodders as well (maybe not to the same level as you though) and i don't entirely disagree with your point.
I would, however, like to add a couple of qualifiers
Test rugby is very very different now to 13 years ago (yeah, feel old now?)
The guy in the 6 jersey was the kind of player who had people actively avoiding him, and could also bend the line with the ball. The dude on the other side is the GOATAnd, as good as they were, we went up another level once we got Kaino and Read at 6 and 8.
Ardie is doing better at 8 than I thought, but the balance is still wrong. Perhaps with Akira at 6 it could work, but then we’d probably still be better running Akira or Sotutu (or Robinson) out of gas and bringing on Ardie.
Even worse IMO, is that we don’t have many difference makers on the bench right now, and Ardie is so good at being impactful in 20 minute spans, especially against tired legs. I can imagine it doesn’t make you feel like you’re valued, but actually I think it’s a really crucial role - I want him on the field at the end of games going crazy from minute 60 through 80.
Tough spot for Fozzie because Ardie is clearly the second best loose forward in the squad right now so having him come off the bench doesn’t make much sense when the other options are fairly wet behind the ears.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@gt12 said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Could Ardie be our next Rodders though? I see plenty of similarities but like Rodders there are detractors and critics that say we aren’t getting this or that.
Savea’s workrate has really lifted and I was critical of him last year of ball watching a bit and looking to pounce. This year he has been very involved.
Balance is key but I know when the Collins, McCaw, Rodders trio started there were many critics of a lack of balance. Some wanted Lauaki or Tuiali’i or a taller LO option blindside etc. I thought that after time together they worked out how utilise their strengths to the benefit of the team.
I love Rodders as well (maybe not to the same level as you though) and i don't entirely disagree with your point.
I would, however, like to add a couple of qualifiers
Test rugby is very very different now to 13 years ago (yeah, feel old now?)
The guy in the 6 jersey was the kind of player who had people actively avoiding him, and could also bend the line with the ball. The dude on the other side is the GOATAnd, as good as they were, we went up another level once we got Kaino and Read at 6 and 8.
Ardie is doing better at 8 than I thought, but the balance is still wrong. Perhaps with Akira at 6 it could work, but then we’d probably still be better running Akira or Sotutu (or Robinson) out of gas and bringing on Ardie.
Even worse IMO, is that we don’t have many difference makers on the bench right now, and Ardie is so good at being impactful in 20 minute spans, especially against tired legs. I can imagine it doesn’t make you feel like you’re valued, but actually I think it’s a really crucial role - I want him on the field at the end of games going crazy from minute 60 through 80.
Tough spot for Fozzie because Ardie is clearly the second best loose forward in the squad right now so having him come off the bench doesn’t make much sense when the other options are fairly wet behind the ears.
no disrespect intended, you know your shit more than most on here, but
i fucking hate that argument, and its natural progression which is "pick the 15 best players and let the positions take care of themselves"
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I think Pocock and Hooper showed you cant just put two great players out and expect it to work. I feel for Ardie because clearly, he is good enough but Akira, Sotutu and Cane is simply better balanced. And Ardie would benefit the team more coming on with 30 to go with those three starting IMO.
The bench should be used and thought of in a strategic way, there is nothing wrong IMO of having a different type of player who is simply better suited to tired defences, and I think Ardie is that type. BB was electric off the bench early in his career and was a great weapon for us. Not sure we have that right balance with the bench just yet.
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@mariner4life all good bro, and I’m not a fan of it either. But I see the rationale when a new coach is starting out. Akira, Sotutu are largely unknown quantities at test level and Frizzel has barely any himself.
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@chimoaus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
I think Pocock and Hooper showed you cant just put two great players out and expect it to work.
I think this is a pretty lazy comparison and also gets my ire up regarding Pocock being a great player. Bloody excellent at his trick, you'd struggle to find any better, but I'm not sure what else he offered and a smaller "link" player like Hooper was never going to be able to cover all of it.
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@chimoaus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
I think Pocock and Hooper showed you cant just put two great players out and expect it to work. I feel for Ardie because clearly, he is good enough but Akira, Sotutu and Cane is simply better balanced. And Ardie would benefit the team more coming on with 30 to go with those three starting IMO.
The bench should be used and thought of in a strategic way, there is nothing wrong IMO of having a different type of player who is simply better suited to tired defences, and I think Ardie is that type. BB was electric off the bench early in his career and was a great weapon for us. Not sure we have that right balance with the bench just yet.
Agree and there will be matches where the two "flyers" combination works - Pooper was occasionally successful and we got the shit kicked out of against England last year when Eddie selected two open sides (albeit that combination was less good a week later against a properly balanced back row). So, that's not to say that Ardie will always be resigned to the bench role, but in most cases he probably will.
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I don't think it is a 2 open sides problem, it is a - can one play 6 and 8 as a specialist-problem. George Smith came close.
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@nostrildamus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
I don't think it is a 2 open sides problem, it is a - can one play 6 and 8 as a specialist-problem. George Smith came close.
Fair to say he fared better than Marty Holah in the six jersey ( shudders )
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@junior said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@chimoaus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
I think Pocock and Hooper showed you cant just put two great players out and expect it to work. I feel for Ardie because clearly, he is good enough but Akira, Sotutu and Cane is simply better balanced. And Ardie would benefit the team more coming on with 30 to go with those three starting IMO.
The bench should be used and thought of in a strategic way, there is nothing wrong IMO of having a different type of player who is simply better suited to tired defences, and I think Ardie is that type. BB was electric off the bench early in his career and was a great weapon for us. Not sure we have that right balance with the bench just yet.
Agree and there will be matches where the two "flyers" combination works - Pooper was occasionally successful and we got the shit kicked out of against England last year when Eddie selected two open sides (albeit that combination was less good a week later against a properly balanced back row). So, that's not to say that Ardie will always be resigned to the bench role, but in most cases he probably will.
Helps that Eddie got more from his tight five and his backrow was more on form than ours.
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@antipodean said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@junior said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@chimoaus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
I think Pocock and Hooper showed you cant just put two great players out and expect it to work. I feel for Ardie because clearly, he is good enough but Akira, Sotutu and Cane is simply better balanced. And Ardie would benefit the team more coming on with 30 to go with those three starting IMO.
The bench should be used and thought of in a strategic way, there is nothing wrong IMO of having a different type of player who is simply better suited to tired defences, and I think Ardie is that type. BB was electric off the bench early in his career and was a great weapon for us. Not sure we have that right balance with the bench just yet.
Agree and there will be matches where the two "flyers" combination works - Pooper was occasionally successful and we got the shit kicked out of against England last year when Eddie selected two open sides (albeit that combination was less good a week later against a properly balanced back row). So, that's not to say that Ardie will always be resigned to the bench role, but in most cases he probably will.
Helps that Eddie got more from his tight five and his backrow was more on form than ours.
Also helped he selected an entire backrow.
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@antipodean said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@junior said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@chimoaus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
I think Pocock and Hooper showed you cant just put two great players out and expect it to work. I feel for Ardie because clearly, he is good enough but Akira, Sotutu and Cane is simply better balanced. And Ardie would benefit the team more coming on with 30 to go with those three starting IMO.
The bench should be used and thought of in a strategic way, there is nothing wrong IMO of having a different type of player who is simply better suited to tired defences, and I think Ardie is that type. BB was electric off the bench early in his career and was a great weapon for us. Not sure we have that right balance with the bench just yet.
Agree and there will be matches where the two "flyers" combination works - Pooper was occasionally successful and we got the shit kicked out of against England last year when Eddie selected two open sides (albeit that combination was less good a week later against a properly balanced back row). So, that's not to say that Ardie will always be resigned to the bench role, but in most cases he probably will.
Helps that Eddie got more from his tight five and his backrow was more on form than ours.
Agreed, but it goes to show that there are times when picking two 7s can work (usually when your tight 5 is so good you can afford to go without the extra bulk of a traditional 6).
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@junior said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@antipodean said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@junior said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@chimoaus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
I think Pocock and Hooper showed you cant just put two great players out and expect it to work. I feel for Ardie because clearly, he is good enough but Akira, Sotutu and Cane is simply better balanced. And Ardie would benefit the team more coming on with 30 to go with those three starting IMO.
The bench should be used and thought of in a strategic way, there is nothing wrong IMO of having a different type of player who is simply better suited to tired defences, and I think Ardie is that type. BB was electric off the bench early in his career and was a great weapon for us. Not sure we have that right balance with the bench just yet.
Agree and there will be matches where the two "flyers" combination works - Pooper was occasionally successful and we got the shit kicked out of against England last year when Eddie selected two open sides (albeit that combination was less good a week later against a properly balanced back row). So, that's not to say that Ardie will always be resigned to the bench role, but in most cases he probably will.
Helps that Eddie got more from his tight five and his backrow was more on form than ours.
Agreed, but it goes to show that there are times when picking two 7s can work (usually when your tight 5 is so good you can afford to go without the extra bulk of a traditional 6).
Curry plays blindside for his club though and is 111kgs. He's as big as most International blindsides.
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@chimoaus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
I think Pocock and Hooper showed you cant just put two great players out and expect it to work. I feel for Ardie because clearly, he is good enough but Akira, Sotutu and Cane is simply better balanced. And Ardie would benefit the team more coming on with 30 to go with those three starting IMO.
The bench should be used and thought of in a strategic way, there is nothing wrong IMO of having a different type of player who is simply better suited to tired defences, and I think Ardie is that type. BB was electric off the bench early in his career and was a great weapon for us. Not sure we have that right balance with the bench just yet.
Not to go too off topic but I think RM is that type of player as well. Thrives when the defenses are tired and the game is opening up a bit, but is a possum in the headlights against an aggressive team in the first 40 - 60 minutes. Injecting him and Ardie fresh with 20 to go would be a bit of a nightmare for teams to defend against. I agree with you completely we are not utilising our bench as a weapon the way we used to.
