When should Foster go?
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@taniwharugby im not important enough but my wife got shoulder tapped for a job in aus, its what brought us over, obviously still needed to "interview" but she never applied. and as i say, i just think when there are only a handful of people in the world you would consider and you can see very publicly how theyre doing in their current roles...i feel thats different
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@Kiwiwomble yeah but thats what I mean, internally they still needed to tick off boxes, I guess its up to them what they deem an application - you want to apply? Yes? 'Interview' is next week.
Especially if other people are able to apply, they need to have a process.
I agree I think they need to look at how they went about it, but by the same token, how soon before Hansen's exit should they start looking at candidates?
I think a whole bunch of things conspired against us getting multiple strong candidates and left us with 2 good but limited options.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in When should Foster go?:
@Machpants said in When should Foster go?:
Cool, one more game and he's gone
For some reason, I thought we were playing Italy & Wales in late-Winter (NZ).
Probably best you're right. Don't think I could hack the thought of losing to Italy & Wales (for the first time in 70 years..)
It was worse losing to Argentina - that was the first time in over 120years (EVER)
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@Higgins said in When should Foster go?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in When should Foster go?:
@Machpants said in When should Foster go?:
Cool, one more game and he's gone
For some reason, I thought we were playing Italy & Wales in late-Winter (NZ).
Probably best you're right. Don't think I could hack the thought of losing to Italy & Wales (for the first time in 70 years..)
It was worse losing to Argentina - that was the first time in over 120years (EVER)
and it wasn't even in Buenos Aires FFS, with feral, hostile, booing locals and lasers in our eyes
It was in soulless Western Sydney.
If this had happened in the late-90s/early-2000s there would be calls for them not to come home
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@mariner4life said in When should Foster go?:
I don't know, but am convinced that, the reason the process started so late was, the NZRU thought they would win the World Cup, and therefore the succession planning was seamless, and would go over without any public disagreement.
Of course, this thinking ignored the two years of rugby that came before it, but hey, organisations used to success have blindspots.
the inevitable happens, we get bundled out, and suddenly the process is a thing that has to happen. the problem is, it is too late. the best candidates are already in other jobs. And the picture is painted that the process is a box-ticking exercise.
And so you get what we had here last week. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it
I don't like it, any more than you do
Fuck off, foster is in no way Cool Hand Luke
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@Crazy-Horse said in When should Foster go?:
@Bones said in When should Foster go?:
@Crazy-Horse said in When should Foster go?:
Interesting concept that it is ok for some players to make the same mistakes as others simply because they are better players. Not sure I agree with that, but I do get where you are coming from.
It's not simply because they're better players though. It's because they'll do their job and do what's needed to get their team on top. RM had done SFA until then, that was a perfect moment to step up, do the basics and start to get his team looking like winners. And he can't even butter his bread, what he should be able to do with his eyes closed. It's not just a missed touch, I can't imagine that not having an effect on others in the team too.
Yeah problems are definitely bigger than that but when your guy who's supposed to be the master planner is so unreliable, you probably should start there.
Not defending RM for the miss because it was inexcusable. I do wonder how Carter would actually go in this team and with trying to combat the rush defence. It wasn't really anything he had to deal with. And he had pretty good forward pack in front of him.
Neither RM nor BB are bad players. They are not being given the platform to perform. Are there any 10s out there looking like world beaters, especially ones operating behind a disappointing pack?
Hey that Sanchez fella goes alright eh...
I think the forward performance is being overblown, especially when it comes to discussing our tens. There is a whole lot more they can do than take it to the line and throw a dinky pass/dummy.
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@Bones I think it comes back to what we were doing with the ball.
It seemed all we did was keep running at them to knock us over.
We beat more defenders, ran more metres, passed more times, more off loads, which we did with 45% possession and territory (we also had less penalties against us)
Ruck/maul stats were similar, we both made 90% of our tackles...however, they kicked 26 times to our 16 and only turned the ball over 4 times to our 14.
Almost 10% of our 179 passes went to Caleb (14) I think the expectation was he'd bust a hole and we'd do the business from there, but he didnt....while he made 1 clean break and beat 4 defenders, IIRC they were cleaned up pretty quickly, Argies knew he was a threat and shut him down.
So again, comes back to what we did with the ball when we had it...which was turn it over
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@taniwharugby yeah, it was also really noticeable that when we took it up, there was often little to no footwork to find a weak shoulder and extra metres...I'll come back to this later...
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@broughie said in When should Foster go?:
@Victor-Meldrew no I don’t think so. First I think we all knew that Foster was not up for the job. Second I think we would give any new fella more grace because he has not been part of the system for the past 8 years plus.
If we are going to judge Foster on 5 games as he's been there for 8 years, then I guess we need to give him credit for all the good stuff in those 8 years as well.
My worry is simply replacing Foster becomes a fig-leaf and hides or pushes back some of the deeper issues that need fixing.
We get a new coach, give him, say 2 seasons to turn things around - and 1 year away from RWC 2023 we find out he can't. Where does that leave us?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in When should Foster go?:
@broughie said in When should Foster go?:
@Victor-Meldrew no I don’t think so. First I think we all knew that Foster was not up for the job. Second I think we would give any new fella more grace because he has not been part of the system for the past 8 years plus.
If we are going to judge Foster on 5 games as he's been there for 8 years, then I guess we need to give him credit for all the good stuff in those 8 years as well.
My worry is simply replacing Foster becomes a fig-leaf and hides or pushes back some of the deeper issues that need fixing.
We get a new coach, give him, say 2 seasons to turn things around - and 1 year away from RWC 2023 we find out he can't. Where does that leave us?
Burn the heretic!
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@Higgins said in When should Foster go?:
It was worse losing to Argentina - that was the first time in over 120years (EVER)
And we lost to Ireland for the first time ever under Hansen. Ireland have never made the RWC Semis. Argentina have been in the RWC semis twice.
Which was the worst result?
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@antipodean said in When should Foster go?:
Burn the heretic!
Sir, I refer you to the public clamour a few years back to play Christian Cullen at 13 ...
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@taniwharugby said in When should Foster go?:
Almost 10% of our 179 passes went to Caleb (14) I think the expectation was he'd bust a hole and we'd do the business from there, but he didnt....while he made 1 clean break and beat 4 defenders, IIRC they were cleaned up pretty quickly, Argies knew he was a threat and shut him down.
This. Classic example of a team not being able to think on their feet or switch to plan B.
Whose fault is that? The players, the coach, players/coach relationships or team culture?
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@Higgins said in When should Foster go?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in When should Foster go?:
@Machpants said in When should Foster go?:
Cool, one more game and he's gone
For some reason, I thought we were playing Italy & Wales in late-Winter (NZ).
Probably best you're right. Don't think I could hack the thought of losing to Italy & Wales (for the first time in 70 years..)
It was worse losing to Argentina - that was the first time in over 120years (EVER)
A bit much to suggest 120 years when the first match was in 1976 and the first recognised test in 1985 😳
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The thing is Steve Hansen had a dreadful record before he coached the All Blacks. He had a decent record with Canterbury, was poor with Wales and had never coached at Super Rugby level. When Hansen was appointed, plenty of people on here were aghast. He simply hadn't had the success to earn himself the position. The difference with Hansen was the players he had in his squad in 2012 were still a big part of what had been successful under Henry. Hansen didn't have to adapt from the start.
Foster is a different kettle of fish. We need to change how we play. If you want change in an organisation you hire externally. If you want continuity you hire internally. The big mistake is that the loss to England and other performances were written off as aberrations, when they were indicative of a trend.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in When should Foster go?:
@broughie said in When should Foster go?:
@Victor-Meldrew no I don’t think so. First I think we all knew that Foster was not up for the job. Second I think we would give any new fella more grace because he has not been part of the system for the past 8 years plus.
If we are going to judge Foster on 5 games as he's been there for 8 years, then I guess we need to give him credit for all the good stuff in those 8 years as well.
The problem is - of those 8 years - the most recent 4 years was not real flash.
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@KiwiMurph said in When should Foster go?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in When should Foster go?:
@broughie said in When should Foster go?:
@Victor-Meldrew no I don’t think so. First I think we all knew that Foster was not up for the job. Second I think we would give any new fella more grace because he has not been part of the system for the past 8 years plus.
If we are going to judge Foster on 5 games as he's been there for 8 years, then I guess we need to give him credit for all the good stuff in those 8 years as well.
The problem is - of those 8 years - the most recent 4 years was not real flash.
Totally agree. The cracks have been there for some time and I don't think that's all down to Foster. I think it's going to take more than 5 games to turn things around.
The question for me is Foster the one to do that and is it too early to say?
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Well, John Hart is backing Foster.
Former ABs coach reveals team 'issues': Why players are to blame, not Foster
All Blacks legend points the finger at the players rather than under-fire Ian Foster.
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@KiwiMurph said in When should Foster go?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in When should Foster go?:
@broughie said in When should Foster go?:
@Victor-Meldrew no I don’t think so. First I think we all knew that Foster was not up for the job. Second I think we would give any new fella more grace because he has not been part of the system for the past 8 years plus.
If we are going to judge Foster on 5 games as he's been there for 8 years, then I guess we need to give him credit for all the good stuff in those 8 years as well.
The problem is - of those 8 years - the most recent 4 years was not real flash.
That's not really fair though. If we look at 2016-2019, our losses were:
- vs Ireland, Soldier Field
- vs Lions, Westpac
- vs Australia, Brisbane
- vs South Africa, Westpac
- vs Ireland, Dublin
- vs Australia, Perth
- vs England, Tokyo
With 2 draws in there as well. Between 2012-2015 we had 3 losses and 2 draws. Between 2008 and 2011 we lost 9 times and 2004-2007 there were 6 losses. So it is fair to say we did regress over the last world cup cycle but we regressed from a strong position. 7 losses and 2 draws is still a very good effort for a cycle. Let's not forget that two of those losses were red cards, the losses at Soldier Field and vs South Africa at Westpac were avenged. We should have beaten the Irish in Dublin but blew a number of second half opportunities. The only game we really lost and got blown out of the water was the World Cup semi and the game at Soldier Field.
I think that All Black team is getting recognised for what it didn't achieve (lost Lions series for only second time in history, loss at home for first time in 8 years, first losses to Ireland) and not what it did achieve. We thrashed Ireland in the quarters, retained Bledisloe Cup, undefeated in the Republic, 3x Rugby Championship etc.
I think it's about recognising that the last four years were actually a very good period for us. It's just that what made us good over that period isn't going to be applicable for the next four years.
